Posted on 11/18/2002 7:26:58 AM PST by Jack Black
I'd make that statement to anyone, because--across the board--we certainly have less freedom in this country than we did at its founding, as the Founding Fathers would certainly be horrified to see, were they alive today.
To: home educate
Exactly right.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."
The libertarian ideas our nation is founded upon leave a lot of room for the assimilation of different races.
Good. You must certainly now understand that my position is that of the Founding Fathers who made no provision for "state assistance" in such cases in the Constitution of the United States. Such "assistance" is made possible only by forcible theft from other men, and is thus immoral:
"By nature's law, every man has a right to seize and retake by force his own property taken from him by another by force or fraud. Nor is this natural right among the first which is taken into the hands of regular government after it is instituted. It was long retained by our ancestors. It was a part of their common law, laid down in their books, recognized by all the authorities, and regulated as to circumstances of practice." --Thomas Jefferson: Batture at New Orleans, 1812
I believe the Free State project is the result of a very realistic assessment of all the possible courses of action. I do not speak for them but that's how I observe and read the situation.
Comparing the socialist takeover of the Democrat party to libertarians or even conservatives taking over the Republican is like comparing apples and oranges. Two different matters completely. Socialism and communism were more than just a political philosophy they were mass religious movements and their followers had a zealotry to them that normal people just wanting to be left alone lack. Also they believed in using evil to fight evil and evil came naturally to the true believers as this religion stirred up base and negative emotions - envy, greed, resentment, even hate and the lust to destroy. Of course this was veiled as love and compassion for ones fellow man and building utopia. Using deceit and pitting groups against each other is legitimate, even righteous for these people as they think of a loftier end result.
There is also a financial angle to this that can not be overlooked and it is more important than the religious fanatics mentioned above. Ever wonder why so many socialists and communists are wealthy people and families? it means monopolistic control giants of industry will have as they partner with big government. Small business i.e.. competition will be strangled. Not to mention the looting of the treasury as government picks up the tab for business costs - R&D to advertisment,etc. In short socialism is a racket - a lucrative and perpetual one.
The Republican establishment signed on to the Democrat socialist program back in the 1930's. They had to retain the two party front but they believe in the program. Wendle Wilkie was no real conservative. Post War 2 pols like Ike were establishment tools. Goldwater was sabotaged by GOP establishment as much as the Democrats. Reagan was an aberation and he was contained. True conservatives are being purged from the party now as we speak in case some haven't noticed.
So to sum up a take over of the GOP is not going to happen by good honest grassroots liberty loving people at a national level. Even at sate level it would be impossible in 40 of the states and that is why I believe the FSP is looking at a couple of small states where right thinking people could concentrate their efforts. BTW so far the FSP is not advocating a take over of the GOP or starting a third party. That course of action could only be determined when a state is officially selected and the actual numbers of FS members is known and they are in place. The plan is sound and realistically our only chance.
Please refer to the Jefferson quote provided in my previous post.
Exactly.
To: exodus
That sounds good so far.
We just need to smooth it out a little.
Have faith in your fellow man, wimpycat.
The accident victim you were worried about earlier wouldn't have died from lack of care. We've become used to the crutch of government subsidies in medical care, thus costs have gone through the roof. If we can find doctors willing to volunteer to go to primitive nations to do charity work, I'm sure we'll be able to find doctors willing to work in the proposed "Free State."
People aren't as mean as the socialists say they are. We won't let anyone die.
Backwards.
To: wimpycat
That is an outright lie, Poohbah.
The Green Goblin is a libertarian. Libertarian primciples do not allow murder.
I realize that as a socialist it's your duty to point out how mean and hateful capitalists are, but you're really using the wrong forum; you're supposed to be pretending to be a conservative, remember?
"By nature's law, every man has a right to seize and retake by force his own property taken from him by another by force or fraud. Nor is this natural right among the first which is taken into the hands of regular government after it is instituted. It was long retained by our ancestors. It was a part of their common law, laid down in their books, recognized by all the authorities, and regulated as to circumstances of practice."
Great quote, Goblin!
I haven't seen that one before.
No, it isn't. Every Libertarian I've met favors legalized euthanasia.
The Green Goblin is a libertarian. Libertarian primciples do not allow murder.
Ah, but they allow the inconvenient to remove themselves from our midst. And they don't get overly fussy about making sure that private transactions are adequately documented, so they would end up, in practice, winking and nudging at fraudulent euthanasia, all in defense of "freedom" and "keeping nosy bureaucrats out of our private affairs."
The real world is a tad more complex than Libertarianism allows for.
I realize that as a socialist it's your duty to point out how mean and hateful capitalists are, but you're really using the wrong forum; you're supposed to be pretending to be a conservative, remember?
People who disagree with you are not necessarily socialists. People who are sane are neither socialist nor libertarian, and with damn good reason, as your latest brain drippings reveal.
Basically, libertarianism works in a world where people are innately good, without any evil impulses anywhere. Sadly to say, that world does not exist.
His claim that representative government is a "libertarian" value also struck me as novel.
To: nopardonsTo: exodus
Actually, there are Libertarians on FR who defend slavery, as long as it is done under the guise of "contract." See http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3aad218b5c77.htm
# 196 by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe; nopardons; OWK
I took the time to search the entire thread, Roscoe. You're lying. Your refusal to admit that there is a difference between "voluntary" and 'involuntary" does not mean that OWK supports slavery.
# 220 by exodus
You claim to be familiar with the law. I tell you, "Objection! Speculation is not fact."
"OWK defends slavery" is not true. If you say that it is true, I am justified in saying that you are lying.
You are the only libertarian I've run across with a supportive attitude toward emiment domain.To: Poohbah
"Novel?"
How many times do I need to explain it to you before you remember what I've said? We've covered this several times, Roscoe.
Our Founding Fathers formed our government based upon libertarian principles. Not surprising, since they WERE libertarians.
This has been demonstrated to be a falsehood on this thread already. You, sir, are a liar.
Begging the question is all you've got.
Criminal sodomy laws in effect in 1791: Connecticut: 1 Public Statute Laws of the State of Connecticut, 1808, Title LXVI, ch. 1, 2 (rev. 1672). Delaware: 1 Laws of the State of Delaware, 1797, ch. 22, 5 (passed 1719). Georgia had no criminal sodomy statute until 1816, but sodomy was a crime at common law, and the General Assembly adopted the common law of England as the law of Georgia in 1784. The First Laws of the State of Georgia, pt. 1, p. 290 (1981). Maryland had no criminal sodomy statute in 1791. Maryland's Declaration of Rights, passed in 1776, however, stated that "the inhabitants of Maryland are entitled to the common law of England," and sodomy was a crime at common law. 4 W. Swindler, Sources and Documents of United States Constitutions 372 (1975). Massachusetts: Acts and Laws passed by the General Court of Massachusetts, ch. 14, Act of Mar. 3, 1785. New Hampshire passed its first sodomy statute in 1718. Acts and Laws of New Hampshire 1680-1726, p. 141 (1978). Sodomy was a crime at common law in New Jersey at the time of the ratification of the Bill of Rights. The State enacted its first criminal sodomy law five years later. Acts of the Twentieth General Assembly, Mar. 18, 1796, ch. DC, 7. New York: Laws of New York, ch. 21 (passed 1787). [478 U.S. 186, 193] At the time of ratification of the Bill of Rights, North Carolina had adopted the English statute of Henry VIII outlawing sodomy. See Collection of the Statutes of the Parliament of England in Force in the State of North-Carolina, ch. 17, p. 314 (Martin ed. 1792). Pennsylvania: Laws of the Fourteenth General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, ch. CLIV, 2 (passed 1790). Rhode Island passed its first sodomy law in 1662. The Earliest Acts and Laws of the Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations 1647-1719, p. 142 (1977). South Carolina: Public Laws of the State of South Carolina, p. 49 (1790). At the time of the ratification of the Bill of Rights, Virginia had no specific statute outlawing sodomy, but had adopted the English common law. 9 Hening's Laws of Virginia, ch. 5, 6, p. 127 (1821) (passed 1776).
BOWERS v. HARDWICK, 478 U.S. 186
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