The Free State Project: A Project for Idaho

Idaho Observer via Sierra Times ^ | 11/16/02 | Hari Heath

[u-89]

Wow- I go away for a few hours and see 150 more posts on this thread when I return. I am surprised by the attention this one got and exodus I admire your stamina.

Conservatives fight against socialist changes, but once the change is made, the fight is over.

That is something that needs repeating, loud and often. Way too many haven't caught on to that sad fact yet. Career politicians by definition want to remain in office and that requires retaining political viability. Controversial issues and resurrecting lost causes are things to be avoided. Don't give opponents an issue to use against you. Just keep moving foward, there is a golden retirement package ahead and a lucrative lobbying job too. Just remain viable, that's all that is required.

[The Green Goblin]

We do.

You really believe we haven't lost liberty in this country in the last two-hundred or so years? If that's true, then why are you on this site? Why does this site even exist if its stated purpose is unecessary?

[exodus]

To: wimpycat
You equate (the proposed) free state with Utopia?

To: The Green Goblin
No, you guys equate a "free state" with Utopia, not me. We already live in a free society. You might "feel" oppressed and tyrannized living in the good ol' U.S. of A. in 2002, but that doesn't mean you are.
# 295 by wimpycat
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"You guys" didn't say that; wimpycat, you accused us of saying that. There is no such thing as Utopia, and libertarians know that better than anyone.

We used to live in a free society. That freedom will soon be a thing of the past.

The Patriot Act marks the official end of government recognition of our rights. If our government does not honor our rights, by definition we do not live in a free society.

[Kevin Curry]

I'm fighting against the sure and permanent loss of liberty that will result if the libertarian/socialist axis ever forces its full agenda on us.

[Kevin Curry]

Poor exodus. Are your wrists chafed and bleeding from the irons you must drag about your cell each day? What abject hell you live in. No light, no happiness, . . .

[wimpycat]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. You haven't accounted for the insurance costs, etc. You said drunk drivers would still be held accountable just like today. Let's say a drunk driver hits someone and leaves that other person a quadriplegic. The drunk driver had no insurance and the victim either had no insurance, or inevitably he maxed out his private insurance (as a quadriplegic would do after a number of years). What type of state assistance would be available to the quadriplegic and his family? He would still get social security disability (since your state couldn't interfere with that federal program), and he would likely be eligible for Medicaid, but since your state will have abandoned a state income tax, where would the state find the revenues to care for this disabled victim? To put it another way, how would this victim and his family survive? Would private charity bear the brunt? To say it would be done the same as before doesn't take into consideration the enormous rise in medical costs and advanced technology--30 or 40 years ago, this quadriplegic would in all likelihood have died from his injuries.

[The Green Goblin]

I'm fighting against the sure and permanent loss of liberty that will result if the libertarian/socialist axis ever forces its full agenda on us.

There is no "libertarian/socialist" axis. Libertarians uphold the Lockean doctrine of private property ownsership which is the basis of individual liberty and anti-thetical to every form of socialsim. Furthermore, the libertarians do not hold any power in this country, so what's to worry about?

[exodus]

To: exodus
"...Career politicians by definition want to remain in office and that requires retaining political viability. Controversial issues and resurrecting lost causes are things to be avoided. Don't give opponents an issue to use against you. Just keep moving foward, there is a golden retirement package ahead and a lucrative lobbying job too..."
# 301 by u-89
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Exactly right, u-89.

Most politicians see their office as a way of making a living, rather than as a sacred trust.

Jobs, of course, are hard to come by, so career politicians will "compromise" their responsibility to the voters in order to stay on the train.

[The Green Goblin]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. You haven't accounted for the insurance costs, etc. You said drunk drivers would still be held accountable just like today. Let's say a drunk driver hits someone and leaves that other person a quadriplegic. The drunk driver had no insurance and the victim either had no insurance, or inevitably he maxed out his private insurance (as a quadriplegic would do after a number of years). What type of state assistance would be available to the quadriplegic and his family?

None. Such a person would be dependent upon personal charity in the case you have described, and such a case would give the Christian church (for instance) ample opportunity to practice what it preaches.

[Dead Dog]

Real freedom is possible only in societies that are essentially made up of one race and oriented to the natural desires and values of their people and their heritage.

Unlike Europe we are a culture based on ideals, not race or national heritage. Any Hispanic that legally crosses the boarder and embraces those ideals automatically inherits our heritage. IMO

[archy]

In the meantime, we won't be holding our breaths waiting to see them get setup with dialup access from Boondocks, Idaho.

Good thing. Dialup access isn't at all what's envisioned....

-archy-/-

[exodus]

To: wimpycat; The Green Goblin
We used to live in a free society. That freedom will soon be a thing of the past. The Patriot Act marks the official end of government recognition of our rights. If our government does not honor our rights, by definition we do not live in a free society.
# 303 by exodus

To: exodus
Poor exodus. Are your wrists chafed and bleeding from the irons you must drag about your cell each day? What abject hell you live in. No light, no happiness, . . .
# 305 by Kevin Curry
**********************

The main thing that sets our society apart from every other society on Earth is our unique definition of freedom.

All over the world, "freedom" means only that you're not in jail.

Only in America do we believe that freedom means that our rights are not violated by our government, and that we have an almost complete license to act on those rights, without fear of reprisal.

I thank you, with sadness, for proving my point, Kevin Curry.

Our definition of freedom now corresponds with the world's definition.

[The Green Goblin]

Good thing. Dialup access isn't at all what's envisioned....

Right--we'll be using T3, baby!

[wimpycat]

Surely you don't believe that we enjoy as much freedom in this country now as we did two hundred years ago.

Would you make that comment to a black man, a property-less white man or a woman? 200 years ago, none of these people had the right to vote or participate in the political debate.

[wimpycat]

None. Such a person would be dependent upon personal charity in the case you have described, and such a case would give the Christian church (for instance) ample opportunity to practice what it preaches.

So, no state assistance for those physically unable to care for themselves. OK, I'm understanding you better now.

[exodus]

To: The Green Goblin
"...since your state will have abandoned a state income tax, where would the state find the revenues to care for this disabled victim? To put it another way, how would this victim and his family survive? Would private charity bear the brunt? To say it would be done the same as before doesn't take into consideration the enormous rise in medical costs and advanced technology--30 or 40 years ago, this quadriplegic would in all likelihood have died from his injuries."
# 306 by wimpycat
**********************

Income taxes are illegal, and should be abolished, but sales taxes and other forms of excise taxes are legal. That could provide as much, if not more, revenue than the State collected before, if it was judged to be needed.

Disregarding taxes, there used to be things called charity, and volunteer work, and family, that could be revived to meet the needs of those unable to care for themselves.

[exodus]

To: The Green Goblin
I'm fighting against the sure and permanent loss of liberty that will result if the libertarian/socialist axis ever forces its full agenda on us.
# 304 by Kevin Curry
**********************

"Libertarian/socialist axis?"

You have no idea what a libertarian is.

A libertarian wouldn't even cause you a temporary loss of liberty, Kevin Curry, unless duty required it.

[AAABEST]

Wouldn't it be better to "starve free" than to be a fat pig under the thumb of Socialism?

LMFAO!!!!!!

[Poohbah]

20,000 ACTIVE voters, knowledgable about the issues concerning them, who can also EACH be expected to work hard to push their political agenda, would make a dent in almost any State, Poohbah.

It wouldn't even be enough to swing a single Congressional race in most states. And 20,000 "outsiders" pushing their agenda in a small state like Wyoming is more likely to generate 40,000 votes going the opposite way.

Sorry, you must plan on the assumption that you will not gain one presently non-Libertarian vote from the existing population of the state--to quote Donald Rumsfeld, "Hope is not a method." That means that you're going to need a lot more bodies to make this work.

Ain't reality a PITA?

[wimpycat]

Private charities do a great deal even today. I'm just trying to get y'all to make clear to the potential voters in your "free state" what you stand for. Since you have to actually get elected to the legislature in sufficient numbers to achieve a majority before any of this can happen, you need to let the average voter know what your "platform" is. Thus, hypothetically speaking of course, and based on his comments here, if Green Goblin were running for the state legislature, his stump speech would go something like this:

"If elected, I promise to do away with all speeding laws, seat belt laws and drunk driving laws. Further, I vow to abolish the state income tax and do away with all public assistance to cripples and other shut-ins. We'll leave the churches to bear those burdens in whatever way they see fit, and if the churches choose not to, since we can't force the churches or other private charities to do anything, well, that's not our problem. It's not the state's job to wet-nurse anyone."