Boy Scouts to Atheist: Accept A God or Get Out

CNSNEWS.com ^ | 10/30/02 | Michael L. Betsch

[anniegetyourgun]

It really doesn't matter what I say - it only matters what God has said. ("Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.")

Gotta run....too many pearls in the sty here!

[Stone Mountain]

Sorry, Mr. Mountain, but that was such as stupid post that I believe I'll come back for a second lick.

Anybody who constructs a sentence such as the above should be very careful about who they call stupid...

Look, I said I heard that Baden Powell was gay. You asked me if I knew for sure. I said no, but I checked Google. I found numerous references by biographers who came to the conclusion he was gay. I acknowledged that they weren't the best sources, but also pointed out that nobody had taken the time to refute them. For that, I'm getting crap from you? You're the one who said, By ignoring the fixed and inseparable gulf of sexual identity from the role of Scoutmaster, you contribute to the direct dilution and perversion of the meaning of 'Boy Scouts." and invoked Baden Powell's name as someone who would have a real problem with gay scoutmasters. Since Baden Powell to my knowledge never said anything on the subject, I assume you're guessing about what his reaction would be. If he were gay, my guess is that his reaction would be different that what you are proposing. If you have a problem with the biographers who concluded he was gay, by all means, provider counter evidence or arguments. You'll have to address all of the evidence though, not just one isolated incident like the picture-taking story...

[stuartcr]

It really does matter what you say because you are speaking under the assumption that your belief in the bible as the unerring word of God, is correct, and that God has really said these things. God has not said these things, a book has. So basically you are speaking for God, which I reject.

[anniegetyourgun]

I know in Whom I have believed.

[stuartcr]

Me too, thanks.

[anniegetyourgun]

I love not having to guess, wish, intellectualize, justify my sin, or make up God as I go along!

[WorkingClassFilth]

His gay biographers. Yeah, right. Thanks for your illucidation. G'night.

[WorkingClassFilth]

Polybius,

You're a fine American. I'm sure. I think your litany about military service, ethics, wealth and all is just great. Really.

You're probably right about the BSA decision too. Too bad.

Even so, you feelings and the BSA's policy do not constitute a coherent whole. You are both infected with a related disorder. You both drink Kool-Aid from the same cup. You both have severed your connection to legitimate decendance.

Enjoy your new construct.

[WorkingClassFilth]

Correct. Fine. OK.

[Polybius]

You're a fine American. I'm sure. I think your litany about military service, ethics, wealth and all is just great. Really.

Thank you.

Even so, you feelings and the BSA's policy do not constitute a coherent whole. You are both infected with a related disorder. You both drink Kool-Aid from the same cup. You both have severed your connection to legitimate decendance.

As I noted before in my earlier post:

"Ron F and I did not change this aspect of Scouting, WCF…….. the BSA National Executive Board did……….fifteen years ago in 1987.

Your beef is with the BSA National Executive Board decision that was made before most active Boy Scouts today were ever born."

It is obvious that you strongly disagree with that BSA National Executive Board decision. What have you done to officially request that the BSA National Executive Board revisit it's 1987 decision and reverse it?

[Stone Mountain]

Like I said, I'd love to find other sources - I just couldn't find any. Feel free to provide some - I would be interested in reading them.

[jejones]

There's a lot to be said for reading comprehension. To quote myself:

I went back to the post to which I replied...

That strikes me as a reference to a particular post.

[RonF]

Try reading "Two Lives of a Hero", an authorized biography of Baden-Powell by William Hillcourt. William Hillcourt, a.k.a. "Green Bar Bill", was a long-time dedicated Scouter. Among his accomplishments were the writing of an edition of the Patrol Leader's Handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook. He knew Baden-Powell personally, and was given access to Baden-Powell's papers by Olave, Baden-Powell's wife. There's no hint of any homosexuality in there.

Tim Jeal had, I think, an axe to grind. Much was made of the fact that Baden-Powell married late in life, had written some somewhat florid letters to a colleague in the service (and got food, etc., sent to him when he was a prisoner), and showed an appreciation for young men's bodies growing up healthy.

However, it was common for military men in his age to marry later in life, and he was especially prone to as he had a lot of foreign postings and didn't want to try to raise a family on the low pay common to British military officers that were not independently wealthy (as many of them or their families were). A florid writing style was common on both sides of the Atlantic in those days; try reading some of the letters written during the Civil War and you'd think everyone was gay measured against contemporary writing. And since one of the reasons that Baden-Powell founded the Scouting movement was because he found recruits to the military, and youth in general, unfit both mentally and physically to make their way either the military or the world in general, it stands to reason he'd take pleasure in concrete evidence that his movement was reaching it's goals. Victorian England was not 20th Century America (when both these books were written). Hillcourt understands that, but Jeal didn't, and Jeal threw a bunch of pseudo-psychiatric jargon in to further press his point. I don't accept his analysis at all.

[Stone Mountain]

Thanks for posting that - very interesting!

[PokeyJoe]

There's a lot to be said for brain power as well. To paraphrase myself.

"You didn't reference any particular post . . . of the many that I have posted in this thread."

Let me ask, since you seem rather dense . . . "TO WHICH OF MY POSTS (number) DID YOU REPLY?"

[jejones]

Sorry. I assumed that everyone notices the link that the FR message software inserts from each post to its followup, and can trivially follow it. We now have a counterexample, so to be helpful: my initial reply was to post #4 in the thread.

To get back to the possible initial confusion: I was admittedly using the informal American English "you" as a generic or indefinite personal pronoun (see dictionary.com, the second entry), rather than the more proper, but somewhat twee, British sounding "one." If that's the cause of this whole brouhaha, I apologize.

To get back to the topic of the thread: the Boy Scouts, as a private organization, have every right to constrain membership in any way that they wish. As an atheist, I think that Mr. Lambert's deceit through omission dishonorable and damaging to atheists in general.

[WorkingClassFilth]

Look, I really don't care about your issue. If yyou wish to muck about in the bowels of gay biography - great. You are on your own though. G'night.

[WorkingClassFilth]

You're probably right about the core of my conflict being a beef with the National Council. Too bad, too. I left scouting as a Scoutmaster in 1982. I considered it a losing proposition at that time with the emphasis on 'relevance' and I guess time has proven that suspicion correct.

In any event, the erosion that incrementalism causes is evident here. Sorry to say, I think you have boughten into it hook, line and sinker. I am sure that you are doing good things and being a good person. Its just that you have surrendered any crediblity in linking to a great tradition. You really ought to find other venues for your laudable humanitarian efforts.

As a descendant of Cuban immigrants, how do you feel about gay priests and liberation theology?

[Polybius]

You're probably right about the core of my conflict being a beef with the National Council. Too bad, too. I left scouting as a Scoutmaster in 1982. I considered it a losing proposition at that time with the emphasis on 'relevance' and I guess time has proven that suspicion correct.

I have no idea how Scouting was in 1982. I was serving overseas with the U.S.Navy at the time. All I know is that today, in 2002, apart from having Conservative Moms helping out when Dads don't, Scouting is pretty much the same as I remember it from when I was a Boy Scout in 1966. Liberal families don't have their kids in Scouting.

In any event, the erosion that incrementalism causes is evident here. Sorry to say, I think you have boughten into it hook, line and sinker. I am sure that you are doing good things and being a good person. Its just that you have surrendered any crediblity in linking to a great tradition. You really ought to find other venues for your laudable humanitarian efforts.

So, the solution to life's dilemmas is, "If things aren’t perfect…….Quit.”?

When my son went from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts last year, I was surprised, after a 30+ year absence from Scouting, to see a Mom (Conservative, religious, home-schooling) in an adult Scouting uniform with an Assistant Scoutmaster badge.

So, Scouting had changed. And Scouting hadn’t even tracked me down to ask my opinion about the proposed changes. So what should I do about it?

Take my son out of Scouting and quit?

That Mom has moved out of town so she is no longer in the Troop. When the Troop now asks me to volunteer to be an Assistant Scoutmaster because no other men are stepping forward, you propose that I decline because I accepted the fact that the National Council sets BSA policy on women Scouters?

By your standards, nobody should be in Scouting today. If you don’t accept the BSA National Council decision on women, you should quit Scouting. If you accept the BSA National Council decision on women, you should quit Scouting. It’s a Catch 22.

As a descendant of Cuban immigrants, how do you feel about gay priests and liberation theology?

Coming to the USA from Cuba when I was 6, I am an immigrant myself. I went to a Jesuit high school whose faculty transferred, en masse, from Cuba to Miami when Castro took over power. These were Jesuits of the old school Cuban and Spanish mold. Many had survived the Communist bloodbaths during the Spanish Civil War and now had to flee Communism again. A more anti-Communist crowd you will never meet.

To us, “liberation theology” is simply Communism by another name and it is simply a sham and the enemy.

In regards to gay priests, that was never an issue but then, again, those priest came from another time and another place.

I believe you have to pick and choose your battles in life and put things in perspective.

Would I put my boy in Scouting if Scouting allowed gay Scoutmaster? No.

Would I put my boy in Scouting if feminist women were the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster of my son’s Troop? No.

Let’s assume that your wife is Conservative just as you are. Would I put my boy in Scouting if WorkingClassFilth’s wife had volunteered to be an Assistant Scoutmaster because Dads in the Troop did not step forward? Yes.

[Stone Mountain]

Look, I really don't care about your issue. If yyou wish to muck about in the bowels of gay biography - great. You are on your own though. G'night.

It's not MY issue - I'm straight, no longer in the scouts, and have no dog in this race. I brought up a legitimate question from your post and instead of receiving a straight answer from you, I get insults. Doing a Google search is hardly "mucking about in the bowels of gay biography;" It's a shame that you are apparently incapable of having an intelligent discussion of this issue.

You would have done well to read RonF's post 211 to see what a real argument looks like. He was able to respond to my post without calling my posts stupid or accusing me of "mucking about in the bowels of gay biography." Much more effective than tossing around ad hominems.