Why Men Won't Commit: Men's Atitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage

National Marriage Project (Rutgers University) ^ | 2002 | Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe

[GirlNextDoor]

If you are referring to the current situation in this country,

Yes, I was.

it came about not because of a 'failure of the patriarchy', but because the males in the generation of the NOW nags buckled to their complaints.

First, I would say that's not going back far enough and is too simplistic, as well. The decline began gradually and further back than the 60's/70's.
But it is encouraging to see you admit the men DID buckle. Are you quite sure we women weren't chaining them up and whipping them into whimpering, helpless victims w/o a choice in the matter? ;)

males have always honored the female of the species, for the reasons I expressed in My previous posting on this matter.

K, I read you previous posting and I have to say, recorded history is not on your side, FRiend.

I refuse to join in any gender blame games.
BOTH genders failed and took advantage of the natural relationships they were intended for. I simply can not agree with your opinion that men held the best interest of the woman higher than his own. Just as I would not agree with the opinion that women did. The thought that one or the other is completely and solely responsible and have only themselves to blame, frankly,sir, borders on juvenile.

Gradually, power replaced love as motivation. Bitterness and resentment set in. It's been getting steadily worse and the methods men have allowed and women have screeched for to "fix" it is a monumentally dismal failure for all involved.

I've been over on THIS thread talking about this subject. Rather than re-type and re-post I'll just give an FYI link.

I will attempt to address your posting more attentively. Perhaps there is hope for you yet. :)

LOL!
Yes, public retractions *are* allowed. ;-)

But, Hey, your list of results (#544) are dead on!

As for keeping with the "harmony" of the thread, it's likely I haven't (since I haven't had time to read ALL the remarks). But most threads I've read don't tend to stay on key,anyway, so maybe this'll pass...

[GirlNextDoor]

Unfortunately, it has not been My experience that women are willing to relinquish such a power; the lure of it is too strong. Referring back to My previous post where I remenisced upon My experiences in a "FAMILY COURT", I rarely, rarely saw a woman who expressed any reluctance to do so.

Possibly because you won't find the ones strong enough to relenquish such power IN the family courts.
There aren't enough out there to make a dent, unfortunately, but I personally know they ARE out there.

I really dislike mentioning it, but I too have an 'ex' who literally took everything from Me. I count Myself fortunate, however. She put the poor sod who came after Me as the next in a relationship with her in jail. I could see it happening from afar, and wanted to warn him, but he believed her rants concerning Me so... In a little cell he sits.

That is really very terrible. I'm truly sorry to hear that...

[Desdemona]

re 561 & 578

I'm still a little confused...

What is it about what women do/say/act that makes them feminine? The demure part is obvious. Couth should be obvious. Allowing men to be men should be obvious. Being an opposite, should be obvious. What is it, then that's the difference? I have a friend who is a Ukranian woman who thinks American women are spoiled. I think they've been told they're empowered and it gave them an excuse to be pushy.

As an auxilary member of the fashion police, dress and hair I understand. Just stick to the classic looks and pearls and you can't go wrong. And many American women don't understand that.

I came to the conclusion long ago if we just stick to the golden rule and are pleasant, the favor will be returned. And for me it very much is. Is this part of it too? That would seem obvious, but if it was we wouldn't having this conversation.

This is just something I really would like to know from a man's perspective. It's easier to get it when it's relatively anonymous.

[right2parent]

Okay, but turning the tables back to where MEN are holding the nuke is not a better solution. Equity is a solution. No one should be held hostage in a relationship. Z's plan is to just turn the tables.

"Z's plan" is simply to respect our republican form of government. What you, or the mob want makes little difference. Need I remind you, this is not a democracy.

[Desdemona]

First, I would say that's not going back far enough and is too simplistic, as well. The decline began gradually and further back than the 60's/70's.

How far back do you think? I'm wondering because this has really made me think and I keep coming up with early feminist traits/attitudes/opinions in women I know or have known who were born as long ago as 1901. And many of them thought the world of Elenor Roosevelt. These wome were and are proper and generally know how to be ladies, but one owned multiple successful businesses, one reached president level everywhere she worked (rather quietly, but there was no question who was boss), both before 1960. One never married and neither of them ever had children.

Considering that these were two beloved aunts, it's really food for thought.

[GirlNextDoor]

Hi Desdemona. :)

There are several places you can go to research this subject. Here's a good link for a starter.

I don't believe that being a woman should mean that one is unable to participate in business. Even the Bible mentions women working, albeit in the home. I am woking at a home-based business, myself.

You're right, it does get one thinking.
Don't you wish all this "discussion" would actually make a dent, at least...

[Desdemona]

Good morning (as the sun is shining for the first time in weeks)

I don't believe that being a woman should mean that one is unable to participate in business.

I never meant that women shouldn't work. I've heard many a story where the business brains in a firm were the secretary's and the president was a man who could schmooze. I don't believe that women should not be allowed, but they should present themselves as feminine. My particular preference is not office work and I'd make a lousy boss, but I just think that the whole women's movement/feminist attitude started a VERY long time ago.

Don't you wish all this "discussion" would actually make a dent, at least...

With women? Yes. Although, I'd settle for getting girls to brush their hair and wear clothes that don't expose midriffs (especially when they don't have the figure for it). Girls who present themselves this way to the world can't think much of themselves, no matter how many self-esteem classes they've had.

[GirlNextDoor]

, but I just think that the whole women's movement/feminist attitude started a VERY long time ago.

Well, Rachel did "hire" Jacob with some mandrakes, didn't she?

I think women are human and, like men, have a pull to independence. I look at things from a biblical perspective so ,with such, I don't believe even men were made to be totally independent, yet they have a strong pull to be.

The "organized" feminine movement may have had subtle roots further back than the dates given at that link, but I couldn't expand on that myself.

I meant a dent with society, as a whole, actually, as it is my firm belief that both genders are responsible for getting in this mess, and without both pulling together there will never be change. These divisions and resentments tighten the tangled knots, imo. and are used as an excuse to wait for the other side to prove they're willing.

Although, I'd settle for getting girls to brush their hair and wear clothes that don't expose midriffs (especially when they don't have the figure for it). Girls who present themselves this way to the world can't think much of themselves, no matter how many self-esteem classes they've had.

LOL! That's a whole 'nother topic of discussion. I've been caught in that trap and thank God I'm coming to see the light. The biggest disgrace is the little girls...
Know what? I better not even start on this one. :)

[Desdemona]

I meant a dent with society, as a whole, actually, as it is my firm belief that both genders are responsible for getting in this mess, and without both pulling together there will never be change. These divisions and resentments tighten the tangled knots, imo. and are used as an excuse to wait for the other side to prove they're willing.

Society? There's enough questioning going on, that things may turn around. It'll be a while, though.

I do think you're right on both genders being responsible. And all of it is so tied up in emotion and individual desire. I don't believe that most of the sentiments are universal, though. There's plenty of good guys and gals out there.

The biggest disgrace is the little girls... Know what? I better not even start on this one.

Okay. Consider it DOA.

[Utilizer]

Sorry, all, for the delay. I am running on a rather fast-paced schedule for today and this week-end, and it is fast becoming bloody difficult to find time to reply to this thread. Rest assured, however, that I will do My best. Although; it may take past the week-end, perhaps Tuesday at the earliest. I will do My best.

[SauronOfMordor]

I have a friend who is a Ukranian woman who thinks American women are spoiled. I think they've been told they're empowered and it gave them an excuse to be pushy.

I think that cultural and legal environment have something to do with it. In an environment where a woman needs to know how to attract a man and then KEEP HIM INTERESTED IN HER for the next 50 years, it creates a different attitude than what you get in a country where there's no expectation of marriages lasting

I think the problem in the US is widespread excessive self-esteem, where "self-esteem" is your opinion of what you deserve to get. Illiterate dropouts refusing minimum wage jobs because working for "chump-change" is beneath them. Barely literate union people striking for $40/hr wages. And women who decide they are God's gift to the male sex who decide you need to pay and pay and pay to keep them happy, because they deserve it (and yes, they have male counterparts)

[bcoffey]

"I think the problem in the US is widespread excessive self-esteem"

And this problem infects far more than relationships and commitments. We seem to have a national malaise that "self esteem" trumps everything else in society.

We have too many people saying, thinking, and acting, "It's all about me" That paradigm infiltrates most every part of our society, and it will be our downfall if not corrected soon.

Well, I just stumbled onto this thread and see I have quite a bit of reading to do to catch up. I'll write some more later, but I couldn't resist expounding on the previous post.

[Woahhs]

it is my firm belief that both genders are responsible for getting in this mess, and without both pulling together there will never be change.

That's a nice egalitarian sentiment, but what would would it look like in concrete practice? In my experience everyone wrings their hands over the acrimony, pats themselves on the back for their high-minded ideals, and continues to live their lives just like they did yesterday.

What would you change?

[Woahhs]

We have too many people saying, thinking, and acting, "It's all about me" That paradigm infiltrates most every part of our society, and it will be our downfall if not corrected soon.

Hear, hear. What we need is some good old fashion shame. No, I'm not being sarcastic.

[bcoffey]

"What would you change?"

The only change that will count is the change that happens inside a human heart. That will take a miracle, but that's what prayer is for. :)

[Woahhs]

I think women are human and, like men, have a pull to independence. I look at things from a biblical perspective so ,with such, I don't believe even men were made to be totally independent, yet they have a strong pull to be.

Interesting. Have you ever studied the terms of the Genesis 3 curse? It would seem your understanding is somewhat at variance with the divine pronouncements.

[Woahhs]

The only change that will count is the change that happens inside a human heart. That will take a miracle, but that's what prayer is for. :)

I appreciate your sentiment, though I disagree with it wholeheartedly. Even pagans can be nobel...particularly when it's in their best interest.

[bcoffey]

" I appreciate your sentiment, though I disagree with it wholeheartedly"

What's a free country for if we can't disagree wholeheartedly? (At least it's wholeheartedly... I hate wishy-washy people! LOL)

[Woahhs]

What's a free country for if we can't disagree wholeheartedly? (At least it's wholeheartedly... I hate wishy-washy people! LOL)

Well I honestly tried to disagree with you half-wittedly, but it wouldn't work. I kept agreeing! (please don't club me. come on...that was a total gimme...I couldn't resist)

Okay, just to make it fair

(At least it's wholeheartedly... I hate wishy-washy people! LOL)

Me! Wishy-Washy? Never! There might be some soap involved with that, and it ain't even Saturday night.

can we be pals now?