ANDREW SULLIVAN: Anti-semitism sneaks into the anti-war camp

The Sunday Times ^ | October 20, 2002 | Andrew Sullivan

[aristeides]

Oh, I see, you were talking about the other side. Sorry to have misunderstood you.

Debating these people may not advance the debate much on the thread, but hopefully it makes it clear to people reading the thread who the unprincipled liars are. And it is an act of homage to the dead of the Liberty.

[rdb3]

Actually, the one I was referring to is on the anti-Semite side. When you have those who purposefully mistate (i.e. lie) about where an American's loyalty is, they get called what they are. You didn't do this, so I wasn't referring to you.

[aristeides]

The Liberty was piping battle-control data to the Arabs. It was, in effect, a combattant on the Arab side. More, when the US was asked rather urgently to stop that activity, the reply was for all intents and purposes "scr*w you".

Do you have any evidence for that claim? I've seen it made numerous times on Liberty threads, but I've never seen any evidence for it.

While on active duty, I was in Air Force signals intelligence (my naval career came later, in the reserves.) I was stationed in Berlin 1970-2, not so long after 1967. I find it inconceivable a U.S. signals intelligence unit overseas could have routed data to an Arab recipient. Technically, we just didn't have a way to route data to such a recipient.

I suppose it's conceivable that somebody in Washington could have done this, or maybe the Brits on Cyprus or in London did. But how could Israel have discovered this, and delivered its demand to Washington in time for any of this? The Liberty was attacked by the Israelis only a few hours after it arrived on station. In any case, to make this claim, you must have some evidence. Do you?

[rdb3]

They were smack in the middle of a war zone.

That's the one key question, IMHO. Just what were we doing so close to a conflict if we weren't involved?

No one has answered that question yet.

[aristeides]

The Liberty was piping battle-control data to the Arabs. It was, in effect, a combattant on the Arab side. More, when the US was asked rather urgently to stop that activity, the reply was for all intents and purposes "scr*w you".

Do you have any evidence for that claim? I've seen it made numerous times on Liberty threads, but I've never seen any evidence for it.

While on active duty, I was in Air Force signals intelligence (my naval career came later, in the reserves.) I was stationed in Berlin 1970-2, not so long after 1967. I find it inconceivable a U.S. signals intelligence unit overseas could have routed data to an Arab recipient. Technically, we just didn't have a way to route data to such a recipient.

I suppose it's conceivable that somebody in Washington could have done this, or maybe the Brits on Cyprus or in London did. But how could Israel have discovered this, and delivered its demand to Washington in time for any of this? The Liberty was attacked by the Israelis only a few hours after it arrived on station. In any case, to make this claim, you must have some evidence. Do you?

[veronica]

They say Rudy Giuliani is going to run for office again. He'd make a a great POTUS in 2008, or NY Senator in 2006 (bye bye Hillary?). He thinks Pollard got a raw deal. ;)

[aristeides]

Under American law, and under customary international law, the Liberty was in international waters. According to Bamford (p. 207), the ship was 17 1/2 miles from land. Are you going to say that because, under an expansive Israeli or other definition of what constitutes national waters, it was permissible to attack the ship? Or will you claim that, if the ship had withdrawn to whatever distance from shore you think was required (say 20 miles,) that the Israelis would not have attacked?

[Nix 2]

That's because you understand. You just never know when someone from Oxford, Cambridge, or outlandia might show up and have to be taught what being all American is.

Hope it's okay with you that I'm a Steeler fan......

[aristeides]

The Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted accurate information on what the h*** was going on in the Middle East. They knew the Israelis were lying to them. So they ordered the Liberty in, a highly unusual action for any ship, but an unparalleled one for what was really an NSA asset.

[Cachelot]

Do you have any evidence for that claim? I've seen it made numerous times on Liberty threads, but I've never seen any evidence for it.

You have seen the claim made numerous times, on "Liberty" threads. Hmmmmm..... from your previous postings on this thread, you seem to be professing a lack of input on this matter? Strange.

Anyway, as you probably know, having followed the umpteen thousand "Liberty" threads here, many of them the playground of rabid neo-nazis now departed, there's some pretty good evidence. There is one thread in particular that used to be in the archives here. I suggest you look it up.

Technically, we just didn't have a way to route data to such a recipient.

Technically, that is one of the most stupid statements I've ever seen. Technically, there are a zillion solutions, of which the simplest one is simply to broadcast on a frequency you know someone is listening on.

[aristeides]

You just never know when someone from Oxford, Cambridge, or outlandia might show up and have to be taught what being all American is.

If that's a dig at me for being an Oxford graduate, don't you think it's inappropriate in a thread about Andrew Sullivan?

As for what it takes to be all-American, I do not require any lessons, thank you. I am a son of a NYC bus driver from the Bronx, I served four years in the US Air Force, and I was 15 years in the Naval Reserve.

[Nix 2]

It WAS about Andrew Sullivan until you chose to compare the NSA to Naval Security as if they were one and the same. LOL.
Besides, my reply was to rdb3, not you. Wot's da matta u?

[aristeides]

I meant we didn't have a procedure for routing the information. We could only send data to addresses for which we had codes. (And sending classified info to an unauthorized recipient would have been a serious violation of the security rules.) That sort of thing may get done in Washington, but it just is not done in the field. Our codes for addressees did not include any Arab recipients. If that was true in Berlin, I assume it was true of the Liberty as well.

Yes, I admitted seeing the claim made before on these threads that the Liberty was routing intelligence to Arabs, but I also said I have never seen any evidence for that, and in fact I have not. Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide some evidence, if it exists. I think the burden of proof is on you.

[The Right Stuff]

I think it's obvious. They are anti-Israel, anti-US because they are anti-Western. Anti-capitalism, anti-Christian, anti-private property rights, etc.

Take any issue and determine what a free, rational, Christian would think about it - the Left will always be on the other side. Abortion, homosexuality, business ownership, patriotism - you name it.

Since our society is based on Judeo-Christian ethos, they're opposed. Since Israel is based on Judeo ethos, they're opposed to her existance.

It's a perfect fit with the Islamofascist worldview. Funny how they never notice - NOW is now on the same side as the Taliban, the same side as patriarchial men who viciously oppress women. GLAAD is now on the same side as those who push walls onto homosexuals. Interesting, ain't it!

[Cachelot]

don't you think it's inappropriate in a thread about Andrew Sullivan?

I thought you preferred this to be a thread about "USS Liberty"??

[aristeides]

You pretend to know a lot about intelligence, and you seem to be unaware of the relationship between NSA and the Naval Security Group. Hint: you can look it up in Bamford.

[aristeides]

I brought up my being called a Jew-hater for discussing the Liberty because it seemed germane to the discussion. Since then, I have been replying to postings.

[Nix 2]

BTW, I'm the daughter of a KIA Nam Vet, you ugly-minded man. You got one hell of a nerve trying to shove your agitprop down anyone's throat, especially when you lie like a rug...or an attorney. What are you, a clinton clone?

[aristeides]

And you still haven't provided any evidence for your claims about the Liberty.

[aristeides]

Could you please point out to me one place where I have lied?