Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Black hole theory suggests light is slowing (down)!
New Scientist ^ | 13:27 08 August 02 | NewScientist.com news service

Posted on 09/23/2002 9:27:50 AM PDT by vannrox

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-65 next last
Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: TopQuark
Does it not look like not-so-mild case of paranoia?

Indeed it does. However, not all cranks are so easily detected. Tom van Flandern appears to be quite sane and rational, and a regular scientist to boot. Yet the general relativity theorists dismiss him as utterly wrong-headed. I'll take their word over his because they are an overwhelming majority and they can't all be part of a vast conspiracy to suppress this man's findings. But I'm way past out of my depth in trying to form my own judgment.

22 posted on 09/23/2002 5:18:48 PM PDT by tictoc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: tictoc
I see what you mean: he is more subtle. However, he is still arguing agains a strawman. For instance:

Note that the gradient of a scalar field is a vector, not another scalar. But if the field source begins to move, does the field gradient point toward the instantaneous or retarded position of the source? That depends on whether the field updates or regenerates instantly or with delay. There is no such thing as a gloval gradient: it is a vector field, which means that at every point of the trajectory, there is a (different) vector. These vectors do not even live in the same space: at each point of the trajectory, a tangent vector space is attached. To say what he did is simply incorrect.

Now, given that at different points we have different vectors, the question does indeed arize as to which of these enter physical laws. That is a regular question in physics, but once a particular law is consistent with empirical observations, it is accepted as a working hypothesis.

The author speaks here in terms of college calculus. Had he taken a course in geometry, he would not make such a statement, I am sure.

Physics has an issue that math does not. It is his understanding of mathematics that creates a dissonance in his view.

Incidentally, I would not want to give an impression that I not welcome someone disagreeing with Einstein' theory. TO the contrary, I would welcome such questioning and find it exciting. What seems to be happening here is a misstatement of the theory, or mathematics, is argued against. That is at best, and at worst we have some really basket cases. Nevertheless, thank you again for pointing me to that site.

Best regards, TQ.

23 posted on 09/23/2002 6:29:05 PM PDT by TopQuark
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: theprogrammer
The second law is one that will always stand and I'm not going to even bother going into the reasons why. It's like Louis Armstrong said about jazz, "If you've got to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer."

Now I'm even more suspicious about the inviolability of that second law.

24 posted on 09/23/2002 6:59:57 PM PDT by Age of Reason
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: TopQuark
Thank you for your response, which unfortunately went over my head (although I'm sure it contained nothing but fairly elementary physical knowledge).

(Please don't feel that you should supply an even more simplified explanation; while at some point I would "get it", a couple of months later I will have forgotten and start pestering you all over again.)

Popular science books are a blessing and a curse at the same time. My bookshelf includes several that attempt to explain Einstein's theory of relativity (although mostly limited to special as opposed to general relativity) in lay terms. I work my way through these books, often re-reading a sentence or paragraph several times until I feel that I've understood.

In reality it can't be said that I truly understood it at all, otherwise I would be capable of independently detecting and refuting such erroneous presentations of van Flandern's.

Is it because I'm stupid? I guess it depends on how you define intelligence. Most young boys want to be astronauts or firemen when they grow up, I wanted to become a Nobel prize-winning physicist (yeah, funny). That was before I discovered that I have no talent for math.

I wonder if there is such a thing as an indicator of intelligence that is free from bias and preconceptions.

My two lines of work are translation and simultaneous conference interpreting. I find written translation to be immensely harder than interpreting. Probably I suffer from attention deficit disorder although it has not been diagnosed. Just finishing a translation job on time requires me to exercise tremendous powers of will and concentration, and I sincerely believe that a choir of angels should appear every time and blow a trumpet chorus in my praise.

Although my customers sometimes tell me they appreciate my work, no one ever expresses admiration. But when I'm interpreting at a conference, invariably one or several participants will walk up to me and say, "Oh, I'm completely in awe at what you guys do. How do you do it?"

I'll smile and say thank you. Should I tell them that it's not work but fun and enjoyment? That instead of feeling wrung out at the end of the day, I'm exhilarated and ten years younger? I never suffer from attention lapses or boredom when I'm in the booth.

But what some people seem to think is an incredible feat actually comes easy to me.

Maybe there is not one intelligence but many, unrelated ones.

25 posted on 09/23/2002 7:08:29 PM PDT by tictoc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: TopQuark
And I have always been most suspicious of the first law of thermodynamics.
26 posted on 09/23/2002 7:10:38 PM PDT by Age of Reason
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: vannrox
Black hole theory suggests light is slowing

This is depressing news.

27 posted on 09/23/2002 7:11:32 PM PDT by Jorge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vannrox
Any science wizbangs here? How does diffraction from dust alter light? If light had to go through semi transparent objects, wouldn't the light bouncing through them before passing, minutely slow it down? If our universe is more filled with junk than in it's infancy, couldn't that explain the discrepancy?
28 posted on 09/23/2002 7:12:03 PM PDT by dogbyte12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vannrox
"The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense" - Tom Clancy

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing" - Werner von Braun

29 posted on 09/23/2002 7:34:52 PM PDT by hosepipe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vannrox
so...can I use this as an excuse for speeding ?
30 posted on 09/23/2002 7:36:24 PM PDT by PoorMuttly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dogbyte12
The light didn't pass through it, it bounced around in it before it came out thus the speed was still constant
31 posted on 09/23/2002 7:40:47 PM PDT by JoeSixPack1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: JoeSixPack1
but that is kinda my point. if we are measuring light traveling from tens of thousands of light years away, how are we adequately calculating in the amount of space dust it is passing through?
32 posted on 09/23/2002 7:42:32 PM PDT by dogbyte12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: vannrox; RightWhale; equus
If the speed of light varies over time, then, given the relativity of time and space, doesn't that mean that the speed of light also varies from one place to another?
33 posted on 09/23/2002 7:44:52 PM PDT by aristeides
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dogbyte12
ok,, I misunderstood your question. Your equating a straight line measurement with a deflected path measurement.

My answer to that would be an assumption and incorrect.
34 posted on 09/23/2002 7:51:10 PM PDT by JoeSixPack1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: dogbyte12
No whizbang here, but your thought that light slows down when it contacts transparent-translucent matter is correct. It also speeds back up when it exits same. Fastest in perfect vacuum.
35 posted on 09/23/2002 7:53:02 PM PDT by Navy Patriot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: BulletBrasDotNet
"We need to hear from Al Gore on this, since he invented light."

Wow, then his time serving under the Prince of Darkness must have been just horrible for him! (/sarcasm)

36 posted on 09/23/2002 7:58:42 PM PDT by NordP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: PoorMuttly
so...can I use this as an excuse for speeding ?

Cop's radar (laser) gun works at speed of light, if light goes slower you would appear to go faster, therefore you are innocent.

Only kidding, works on doppler shift of return pulse, lightspeed would not affect computation.

37 posted on 09/23/2002 8:03:02 PM PDT by Navy Patriot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: aristeides

YES Good Point.


If the speed of light varies over time...
Then...
Because time is but a human construct for the change of entropy in space,
That,
it varies as a function of location or space.
so...
IF so, then it must vary at different places.
Logic train chugging...
Further...if it varies at different locations...then
It must vary as a function of the attributes the the space it is in...
Or, to put it another way...
There must be elements in a given space that can alter the speed of light....


38 posted on 09/23/2002 8:03:56 PM PDT by vannrox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Navy Patriot
...but the Judge may believe it.

I mean...everybody loves a wise-guy...right?!
39 posted on 09/23/2002 8:05:35 PM PDT by PoorMuttly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: vannrox
Where would the energy from the slowing light go?
40 posted on 09/23/2002 8:29:01 PM PDT by apochromat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-65 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson