TWA Flight 800 Is everyone who disagrees with NTSB a "Tin-foil hat?"

8/2/02 | John Fiorentino

[First_Salute]

OUCH! Correction!

I made a mistakenly stated the time for the first primary after the loss of the transponder as: "20:31:46."

The correct time: 20:31:16.4900.

Thus the paragraphs in reply 160 should read ---

Using TWA800.com's same webpage, their revealing "composite radar graphic (pdf) (gif)," places the next primary radar "blip" at 20:31:16.4900.

Subtract 4.69 seconds from 16.49 seconds, and the previous primary radar "blip" calculates to 20:31:11.80, which would be just a bit earlier on TWA800.com's chart than the last transponder return at 20:31:12.00.

Not making any claims about "Who struck John?," here, just observing these moments:

20:31:11.8000 - primary return

20:31.11.9130 - flight data recorder stops

20:31:12.0000 - last transponder return

20:31:16.4900 - primary return

[First_Salute]

These seemingly missile-like incidents are found online a Mike Hull's website; they're RealPlayer files:

 

November 16, 1996

Pakistan Airways Flight 712 off Long Island, in contact with Boston and then New York Centers:

http://hometown.aol.com/bardonia3/pia712.rm

 

December 12, 1996

Air Saudi Flight 035 off Long Island, in contact with Boston:

http://hometown.aol.com/jmikehull/1sa035.rm

and then with New York Center:

http://hometown.aol.com/jmikehull/sa035.rm

 

March 17, 1997 --- This is probably the launch of a missile test flight at Aberdeen, MD. There is some noise and then lots of chatter on places of this tape, as other pilots talk over each other.

Northwest 775 enroute from New York to Minneapolis is first to report a missile to their south and it's headed south:

http://hometown.aol.com/jmikehull/nwa775.rm

Then US Air 1937 reports the missile:

http://hometown.aol.com/jmikehull/usa1937.rm

Then Delta 2517:

http://hometown.aol.com/jmikehull/dal2517.rm

 

August 9, 1997

SwissAir127 off Long Island, in contact with New York Center:

http://hometown.aol.com/jmikehull/swr127.rm

 

There are many Long Island, NY area witnesses' statements, regarding the TWA 800 loss, which describe anti-aircraft missile flight path behavior. This is apparently a "factory film," it is a lengthy info-piece on the Stinger missile:

http://aztlan.net/stinger.asf

Requires Windows Media Player; download version 7.1 for the Mac, here:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/download/mac71.asp

PC-based machines can find a download version here:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/download/default.asp

[FormerLurker]

though I don't think Al Quaida could have stolen a Standard missile

I was always leaning towards a Sea Sparrow as being the most likely candidate...

[FormerLurker]

Crash School graduates are trainees.

So graduates are now trainees. I suppose that makes sense to you, at least in your own little world.

BTW, have you admitted to everyone how your timeline is simply a figment of your imagination?

[FormerLurker]

Asmodeus states: I'm an expert at interviewing witnesses and analyzing witness reports, not at designing airliners and their components.

Ah, so now you're an expert eh? Why don't you provide us all with your esteemed credentials so that we may all gasp in awe....

[Shooter 2.5]

I went to Deally Plaza yesterday and met a guy who hunts and understands trajectories like I do. We had a nice talk.
I would suggest that if you really want to know who killed Kennedy, you take a vacation to Dallas and find out some facts for yourself.

[FormerLurker]

One of the trademarks of the tinfoil hats has been distorting facts.

I hope you've got yours on, as the truth beams might just fry your brain..

After a drumbeat of demands that I clarify my background, I did so, stating that I've been an investigator for over 50 years, during which time I've personally interviewed thousands of witnesses and personally analyzed the reports of thousands of other witnesses.

So now you're an investigator too? For 50 years eh? I suppose you investigated the JFK assassination too? What exactly have you investigated for 50 years? If you HAVE investigated things for 50 years, I'd say you'd have to be in your 70's or so.

You threw together a website with your "theories" pretty well for a 70+ year old. Sure your not fibbing a little here Asmodeus? We're all waiting for your "expert" credentials, and also your "expert" explanation as to why you're fabricating your timeline and posting everywhere you can...

[PatrioticAmerican]

I bet that was an interesting conversation.

[Shooter 2.5]

Yeah, it was great. Unfortunately my wife doesn't like me to talk about two things, the troubles with Mini-14's and the JFK assassination. I had to cut the talk sort of short because she wanted to continue her shopping trip at West End.

I have never argued with the vendors there. I figure if they want to make a living that way, it's a free country. One vendor did a major mistake. He had side by side pictures where one was from the movie "JFK" and the other was from the Zapruder film. The head injury from the movie was in direct contrast to the Zapruder frame.
Oliver Stone didn't even get that right.

[editor-surveyor]

" An arcing fuel pump in a center fuel tank ignites vapor in the empty tank,and this has never happened before?"

This really goes way beyond 747's or aircraft in general. - Consider that almost all of the cars and trucks manufactured since 1985 have an electric fuel pump in the tank (over 150 million vehicles) and we don't have even one identifiable incident of a fuel tank getting ignited by the internal pump in any of these vehicles.

What are the odds?

[FormerLurker]

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.
8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.
8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.

Asmodeus, I see you're posting your impossible timeline again. Let's just reiterate why it's impossible..

Let me repost a little something I've already posted, and we can see just how high TWA800 was at 20:31:43, 20:31:47, and 20:31:55.

We'll take a look at the radar returns from the Islip radar to see exactly where TWA800 was during this period.

Radar graphic from www.twa800.com

According to the radar returns, the last return of the main body of TWA800 before it hit the water was at 20:31:48:94. Considering an error of up to 4.69 seconds due to the period of the Isplip radar sweep, TWA800 hit the water between roughly 20:31:49 and 20:31:54.

Looking at the radar returns, it becomes obvious that TWA800 was in a ballistic fall with negligible horizontal component between at least 20:31:44 and up to the time it met it's demise in the ocean between 20:31:49 and 20:31:54. We can safely assume that TWA800 would have been in this ballistic fall at 20:31:43 as well by looking at the radar chart.

A simple physics calculation should tell us how high TWA800 was at the specified times if we look at the difference between those times and the time that TWA800 hit the water.

The relevent equation is;
d = (g * t²)/2, where;
d = distance in feet
g = acceleration due to gravity = 32 feet / s²
t = time in seconds

To find the approximate height of TWA800 at any given time during this ballistic fall, we first calculate the difference between that time and the last return on radar which occured at 20:31:49, and then the difference for 20:31:54, which is the latest time TWA800 could have hit the water..

For clarity, I'll call the action of TWA800 hitting the water as the terminal event (TE). Time t will be the difference between the specified time and the TE, and d will be the height of TWA800 at that specified time.

For 20:31:43:

t(TE 20:31:49) = (20:31:49 - 20:31:43) = 6 seconds
t(TE 20:31:54) = (20:31:54 - 20:31:43) = 11 seconds

d(20:31:43, TE 20:31:49) = (32 * 6²)/2 = 576 feet,
d(20:31:43, TE 20:31:54) = (32 * 11²)/2 = 1936 feet.

For 20:31:47:

t(TE 20:31:49) = (20:31:49 - 20:31:47) = 2 seconds
t(TE 20:31:54) = (20:31:54 - 20:31:47) = 7 seconds

d(20:31:47, TE 20:31:49) = (32 * 2²)/2 = 256 feet,
d(20:31:47, TE 20:31:54) = (32 * 7²)/2 = 784 feet.

For 20:31:55:

We don't have to calculate THAT, as we already know that the latest that TWA800 hit the water was at 20:31:54.

These calculations are NOT taking friction of the air into consideration, so if anything it would take LONGER for TWA800 to fall from a certain height. This would mean that the altitudes given are a HIGH estimate.

So, your claim that at 20:31:47 there was the "Explosion of Massive Fireball" at 5500-7500 feet, is clearly impossible, as TWA800 was at MOST between 256 and 784 feet above the water at 20:31:47.

Additionally, your claim that "Streak of light appears" between 20:31:43-20:31:47 is also dubious, as TWA800 was at an altitude of at most 576 to 1936 feet at 20:31:43. And it was going DOWN, not up or sideways...

[Asmodeus]

The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.

8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.

The readers have now seen your huffnpuff attacks on the above timeline and The "Missile Witnesses" Myth. Please provide them with your timeline.

[FormerLurker]

One more thing.

We can see through a few calculations how long it would take TWA800 to fall from its last reported altitude, and see where it was when it began to fall.

We again refer to the equation describing a fall due to gravity;
d = (g * t²)/2, where;
d = distance in feet
g = acceleration due to gravity = 32 feet / s²
t = time in seconds

To see where TWA800 began its ballistic fall, we can look at how long it would take for an object to fall from its last stated altitude of 13,500 feet.

Rearranging the equation to determine time, we have;
t = sqrt((2 * d)/g)

So we have;
t = sqrt((2 * 13,500)/32) = 29 seconds

Given the terminating event to be between 20:31:49 and 20:31:54, we have;
20:31:49 - 29 = 20:31:20
20:31:54 - 29 = 20:31:25

So if TWA800 had been in a ballistic fall all the way down, it would have had to wait from 4 to 9 seconds after losing its nose to do so. The time of the nose separating from the main body is taken as 20:31:16, which is what the NTSB has claimed to be the time that it occured.

BUT, it appears as if TWA800 FLEW for aways and changed direction here and there, so we have to take into consideration that it took LONGER to fall into the ocean than if it HAD been in a purely ballistic fall. That would bring the time of the beginning of the fall closer to the time that it lost its nose, being 20:31:16.

It certainly couldn't have CLIMBED, as it would have taken even MORE time for it to fall from such an altitude. It had no power, so it couldn't have accelerated towards the ground other than the acceleration due to gravity..

I think that pretty much puts to rest this silly zoom climb theory.

[FormerLurker]

The readers have now seen your huffnpuff attacks on the above timeline and The "Missile Witnesses" Myth. Please provide them with your timeline.

Er, you REALLY have a reading comprehension problem don't you. Are your glasses adequate to be reading from a computer screen? I HAVE given timeline calculations, which you obviously ignore as you can't refute what I wrote. Can you see the little numbers on the Islip radar returns. Those are TIMES.

And a person by the name of Isaac Newton came up with these really neat equations having to do with objects in motion. The field of study is called Physics, and by using those equations we can see what is possible and what isn't.

You're timeline is IMPOSSIBLE due to the Laws of Physics, courtesy of Sir Newton..

[FormerLurker]

By the way, if you're really a 70+ old investigator who is an EXPERT in interviewing witnesses and analyzing witness reports, you haven't posted your credentials as you've been asked to do.

You really should get a clue and understand that we aren't easily fooled here, at least most of us aren't..

[FormerLurker]

A few corrections;

Thing is, I forgot that TWA800 would be falling at terminal velocity in all of those calculations going backwards from the impact. I WAS right though about the time it would take to fall from 13,500 feet WITHOUT taking the terminal velocity into consideration. Without taking terminal velocity into the picture, it would have taken 29 seconds for TWA800 to fall from 13,500 feet, more than that obviously if we consider friction and the fact that it was flying part of the way and also take terminal velocity into consideration.

So, there is NO WAY the zoom climb could have occured.

For grins and giggles, let's see if we can theoretically determine how high TWA800 was at 20:31:47.

If we consider TWA800 to be at terminal velocity at that time, as we know it had to have been, let's do the calculation;

d = v * t, where;
d = height,
v = velocity = 150 miles/hour or 220 feet/second
t = number of seconds

If TWA 800 impacted at 20:31:49,
d = 220 * 2 = 440 feet

If TWA 800 impacted at 20:31:54,
d = 220 * 7 = 1540 feet

So Asmodeus's timeline is still baloney, as it is impossible for TWA 800 to have been anywhere close to 5500-7500 feet at 20:31:47.

[FormerLurker]

Out of curiousity, let's see how high TWA800 was at 20:31:43 when we take the velocity at the time to be terminal..

d(20:31:43, TE 20:31:49) = 220 feet/sec * 6 sec = 1320 feet
d(20:31:43, TE 20:31:54) = 220 feet/sec * 11 sec = 2420 feet.

Hmm, that still isn't close to Asmodeus's claim of the TWA 800 exploding into a fireball at 5500-7500 feet four seconds later..

And again, TWA 800 would have been heading DOWN at that time, not up.

[FormerLurker]

Just to see how long it would have taken TWA 800 to fall from 13,500 feet, taking terminal velocity into consideration...

First let's see how long it'd take for TWA 800 to reach terminal velocity..

v = g * t, where;
v = velocity,
g = acceleration due to gravity (32 feet/sec²),
t = time to reach terminal velocity

Rearranging the equation we have;
t = v/g

Terminal velocity is the fastest that an object can fall through the air, and is 150 miles per hour.

So we have;
v = 150 miles/hour or 220 feet/second

Solving for time, we have;
t = 220/32 = 6.875 seconds.

And to see how far it would have fallen in that time, let's do a few more calculations...

We'll see how far TWA 800 would have fallen in 6.875 seconds from d = (g * t²)/2;

d = (32 * 6.875²)/2 = 756 feet

So subtracting that from 13,500, we have;

13,500 - 756 = 12,744 feet

Taking that height and calculating the time it would take for it to fall into the sea;

d = v * t, so;
t = d/v.

Solving for time, we have;
t = 12,744/220 = 58 seconds

58 SECONDS IS IMPOSSIBLE, as TWA800 lost its nose at about 20:31:16, and it impacted between 20:49 and 20:31:54. That means it had to have DIVED under power between the initiating event at 20:31:12 and the time it lost its nose!

As the radar returns show, it DID accelerate between the IE and the time it lost its nose, so that DOES make sense. I wonder if the plane had lost control or if the pilot was taking evasive action?

[Asmodeus]

None of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats wants to provide the readers with a timeline. Neither does John Fiorentino, the "bomb" tinfoil hat. All of the tinfoil hats have the same reason - they don't want to be pinned down to a complete timeline because it takes away most of their wiggle room.

The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.

8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.

Note that the last word is "flames", not TWA 800, not the fuselage, not any part of the wreckage.

The Massive Fireball flames did not descend to the surface at "terminal velocity".

Neither did the source of the Massive Fireball flames, the thousands of gallons of jet fuel that gushed out of the left wing tanks when it separated from the fuselage, descend at "terminal velocity" prior to being ignited and thereby becoming the Massive Fireball.

1. When and at what approximate altitude did those thousands of gallons of jet fuel gush into the sky?

2. At what approximate altitude was that huge cloud of jet fuel ignited, thereby becoming the Massive Fireball?

3. Wasn't that jet fuel/Massive Fireball flames at all times descending?

4. What was the approximate falltime of the Massive Fireball flames to the surface?

The "Missile Witnesses" Myth

[cardinal4]

This really goes way beyond 747's or aircraft in general. - Consider that almost all of the cars and trucks manufactured since 1985 have an electric fuel pump in the tank (over 150 million vehicles) and we don't have even one identifiable incident of a fuel tank getting ignited by the internal pump in any of these vehicles. What are the odds?

Another very good point, Editor.