Posted on 07/30/2002 9:09:34 AM PDT by Stand Watch Listen
If you want to understand the rights that God has given us I would suggest starting with the Ten Commandments in Exodus Chapter 20. The rights include but are not limited to: life, property, commerce, dignity, etc.
These rights concern all men. Atheists, pagans, and unbelievers are still made in the image of God. Nothing can change that. They have of course perverted their purpose, but they remain a creation of God in His likeness and image. Man is not an animal who got lucky through evolutionary process. We are infinitely higher than the animals. That is where we receive our dignity.
Government exists (and I am merely parroting Scripture here) primarily to enforce justice and the law. It is to be an instrument of justice against those who do evil. God gives government power to do this. Those who serve in government are actually called "ministers", and are allowed by God to function. Because government is run by sinful men it will always be imperfect until Christ returns.
Government remains accountable to God always.
The "God" I am constantly referring to is Jehovah, the God of the Old and New Testament. You are well aware of this.
I made no such claim.
You are correct. I misread your statement. I apologize.
You mean man didn't need government until he developed the faculty of reason?
God instituted law, and thus government, after the flood of Noah.
Human beings predate the mythical flood by tens of thousands of years.
God commanded that anyone who kills another must die.
That may be true. But, it's really a red herring.
If you want to understand the rights that God has given us I would suggest starting with the Ten Commandments in Exodus Chapter 20. The rights include but are not limited to: life, property, commerce, dignity, etc.
Human beings predate Christianity and the Bible by tens of thousands of years. Are you saying that rights didn't exist, or that people didn't understand the concept of rights, until the Bible came along?
How did people know theft and murder were wrong all those years before the Bible?
The 10 Commandments list only a few things. There are an infinite number of rights. It's impossible to list them all. How do we go about determining the rest of our rights?
The 1st Commandment states that no one may worship a god other than the god of the Bible. Don't people have the right to worship whichever god they choose?
Atheists, pagans, and unbelievers are still made in the image of God. Nothing can change that. They have of course perverted their purpose, but they remain a creation of God in His likeness and image.
All of that may be true. But, again, you're trying to float another red herring.
Man is not an animal who got lucky through evolutionary process. We are infinitely higher than the animals. That is where we receive our dignity.
What differentiates man from animal?
Government exists...primarily to enforce justice and the law.
I'd tend to agree. How do you define justice and law? What purpose do they serve? What are their limitations?
You said primarily. What does government exist for secondarily?
It is to be an instrument of justice against those who do evil.
Define evil.
The "God" I am constantly referring to is Jehovah, the God of the Old and New Testament. You are well aware of this.
Not everyone believes in the same god as you, or in any god at all. Does that make any difference to you? Or, are you so certain you've got it right that it doesn't matter what other people believe?
Man always had reason; he didn't need government because he was perfect. (For a Chapter or two) :)
The flood is not mythical. It is a fact. I am no expert on archaeology, but I have read that the evidence supports it.
Human beings predate Christianity and the Bible by tens of thousands of years. Are you saying that rights didn't exist, or that people didn't understand the concept of rights, until the Bible came along?
Rights are eternal for man, I have stated this before. They existed from the time of God's creation of man because God has always existed. The Bible was begun probably during the time of Moses. Therefore the book of Genesis took place long before the Bible was written. I would contend that some rights (though not all) were understood by man before they were written down. Sometimes we call this natural law. Natural law would be something that is inherent in God's creation, and is evident in observation. For instance, anyone can see that homosexual behavior is not natural to the creature. Of God had many things to cover inHis law that were not so evident, and that is why it is written down.
God also has given everyone a conscience. We know certain things are wrong. We tend to ignore our cosncience with great frequency. God knows I have too many times. But the law codified a great deal.
Are their an infinite number of rights? I don't think so. Although I would have to hear what you mean by that.
I am not sure what you mean by "red herring". I am simply saying what I think and trying to explain myself.
The 1st Commandment states that no one may worship a god other than the god of the Bible. Don't people have the right to worship whichever god they choose?
I don't think the government should stop people from worshipping false gods. That would cause many more problems than it would solve and it would probably result in the abuse of the power that God has given government.
But to answer your question - before God, you do not have the right to worship other gods. God has no interest in anyone's supposed "right" to worship other gods. So you won't answer to our government, but you will answer to God when you die, and that is much more serious. God will not allow anyone into His kingdom who has unrepentantly worshipped false gods. Anyone who does not believe must repent and God will accept them.
Defining justice and law would take many volumes, but here goes. Very simply, justice is that condition which corresponds with the correctness and rightness of God. Law is something created either by God or by man. Legitimate law either corresponds to, or does not contradict, the created or revealed law of God.
Man is different from the animals because we bear the image of God. We are His prized creation. We have the ability to morally reason and make decisiosn based on conscience or morality.
Evil is that which stands in opposition to the one true God and His son, Jesus Christ. From time to time I engage in behavior that is in opposition to God, His purposes, and His law. This I would define as evil.
Government exists primarily for those things I mentioned. If government wants to fix the cement on my street, I would not necessarily object to that, though that must be low on the priority list next to defending us against evil people and making sure that justice is done. I am not crazy about government being an instrument of social welfare. I think that is primarily the job of the church. I am not sure how else to answer your question without writing a volume.
Not everyone believes in the same god as you, or in any god at all. Does that make any difference to you? Or, are you so certain you've got it right that it doesn't matter what other people believe?
People that believe in false gods, or no god at all, are severly deluded, but they matter a great deal to God. Jesus Christ lives for people like that. They need to repent and believe. As far as the proper understanding of truth goes, however, the opinions of unbelievers matter only insofar as they mislead others or the culture in which they live. In other words the opinions of those who have a false understanding of truth should not matter in the least, except when attempting to counter their arguments. Bad politics finds its beginning in untruths in the heart and minds of individuals.
The Founding Fathers believed this too, which is why they put so many road blocks up in our Republican system. It ia hard to get something done in our system of government, and no one has absolute power. That is by design, as I am sure I do not need to tell you. If the Congress passes something bad, stupid, or criminal, we have a court system that can strike it down. If the people elect an incompetent or a criminal, he can be unelected, recalled, or impeached. (In my opinion we don't do that nearly as often as we should.)
So, although man possessed the faculty of reason he was incapable of applying it to his surroundings to discern right from wrong (because he was perfect for a chapter or two). And that's why he didn't need government. Well, why didn't you just say so?
The flood is not mythical. It is a fact. I am no expert on archaeology, but I have read that the evidence supports it.
The flood might be true. And it might not be. But, wether it was or wasn't isn't relevant to this discussion (ie. a red herring).
They [rights] existed from the time of God's creation of man because God has always existed.
This is known as a non-sequitur.
I would contend that some rights (though not all) were understood by man before they were written down. Sometimes we call this natural law. Natural law would be something that is...evident in observation. [emphasis added by me]
You're getting warmer.
God also has given everyone a conscience. We know certain things are wrong.
Yes, humans have discernment. But, by what process do humans discern right from wrong?
Are their an infinite number of rights? I don't think so. Although I would have to hear what you mean by that.
To understand why an infinite number of rights exist, and that they all cannot be listed, you must first understand what rights are and how they're defined.
I am not sure what you mean by "red herring".
The last third of your post consists of hypostatizing, reification, and red herrings. If you're trying to make an argument based on what we've discussed I'm at a loss to understand it. I've sat here for half an hour and can't figure out what to respond to or how to respond to it because it makes no sense. Perhaps somebody else will have better luck.
You and I simply disagree. I continue to maintain that a belief in God (the true God of the Bible) is a prerequisite for having any true understanding of human rights. We must call on something higher than ourselves, or we are just pontificating. Be well.
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