Report: Turkey lays down conditions for U.S. military action against Iraq

AP | 7/17/02

[hunter112]

It sounds to me like this is one of those deals that could be arranged, where the Kurds get their own state, which gives them a stake in keeping the peace, Turkish Kurds are invited to move there, the Western world sets up factories, housing, etc., and the Kurds get to be the buffer between whatever Iraqis remain, and the Turks. Even though there is enmity between the Kurds and the Turks, it's probably almost as resolvable as the enmity between France and Germany. Since they share a common major religion, it's not as comparable to the Israel-Palestine example.

Of course, I don't expect the Turks to give any bargaining chips away so early in the game.

[a_Turk]

I think the route of an independent Kurdish state is the proper direction.

We've got a 40 billion dollar project going in the region, 21 dams and 19 power generation facilities, irrigation systems, etc. This project is aimed at developing this very impoverished region. Seeing how it's aimed at developing the poor, one would think it should be a World Bank project, but no. We have to flip the bill. Already we've built massive dams and the project is starting to bear fruit.

All of this is happening under Ankara's control.

A Kurdish state is immature at this point. 99% of the populus in the region is severely undereducated. They haven't applied the rights they've beeen granted, but still - after 80 years - stick to paternalism and feudalism. Any Kurdish state would definitely be a liability in many aspects. The best way to bring them along and into the 21st (heck, even the 20th) century is under Ankara.

As far as Turkey becoming a federation of states, this is also immature. The level of education, and the economy, even though lightyears ahead of our Mid Eastern neighbors, does not lend itself to the concept. Turkey, for now, will remain divided into geographical regions, which are: Marmara, Aegean, Mediterranean, Central Anatolian, Black Sea, East Anatolian, and Southeast Anatolian.

Even you in Europe and the US are not ready for politial and national regions in Turkey. We've had to expel countless "good doers" who thought it their duty in life to come into our country and teach our ethnic groups that they are not Turks. This reached a most uncomfortable level when we realized the Russian, Iranian, Armenian, Greek and French military support for the terrorist Marxist Leninist PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party). It was also interesting to see the PKK set up camp in DC, under US protection, right across from our embassy for months distributing their propaganda preceding 9/11. Your congress hindered helicopter sales to Turkey, and attempted to force us to free captured terrorists. I was shocked to hear on a PBS aired high school competition the following question: "Which nation is currently fighting for independence in southeastern Turkey?" The kids were proud to know that it was the Kurds. Yet nobody seems to realize that it is a handful of communist terrorists, who kill other Kurds who do not play along.

No, neither you nor the Kurds are ready for such an endeavor..

[a_Turk]

Even though there is enmity between the Kurds and the Turks

If all 10 million Turkish Citizens of Kurdish origin were to take a piss at once, we'd all drown over there.

No, there is no enmity between Kurds and the rest of the citizenry, hell I know this from 1st hand experience with Kurdish neighbors in Istanbul, and knowing that many politicians and businessmen in Turkey are Kurds. One of them, Turgut Ozal, was President for Pete's sake.

Kurds and Turks are mixed together very well. Seperating them would be a nice mess, but then the people supporting the terrorist baby killing suicide bombing PKK obviously don't mind a mess..

[Lent]

Your congress hindered helicopter sales to Turkey, and attempted to force us to free captured terrorists. I was shocked to hear on a PBS aired high school competition the following question: "Which nation is currently fighting for independence in southeastern Turkey?" The kids were proud to know that it was the Kurds. Yet nobody seems to realize that it is a handful of communist terrorists, who kill other Kurds who do not play along

Typical. Find a minority who are whining for "independence" and you have an audience ready to suggest your country should be chopped up - product of liberal and leftist education. The fact that the former Yugoslavia served as the recent precedent for fragmentation of a sovereign state doesn't bode well for Turkey. The only way this can be dealt with is through strength and thus it's easier to say to &*ll with world opinion. Russia's position with respect to Chechnya is a good example.

[mamelukesabre]

The kurds in turkey are struggling for independence, or some measure of it at least. The turks fear that a kurdish state carved out of iraq would make the kurds in turkey try for something similar. In other words, the turks fear that a kurdish state in iraq could encourage a kurdish secession in turkey, which means a full blown civil war or ethnic cleansing like what happened in yugoslavia.

[a_Turk]

The kurds in turkey are struggling for independence, or some measure of it at least.

Independence from what? Honor killings which still are practiced in the southeast? The feudal system which inspite of it's illegality is embraced still in that area? Freedom from a paternal society which is discouraged by Turkish law? Freedom to send their daughters to school, which is required by Tukish law?

Freedom from having ethnic Kurds becoming president of Turkey? What?

What you've seen so romantically reported by your stupid news media is a terrorist movement encouraged by the enemies of Turkey. If ours is an example of a democracy which you'd hope the opressed people in Iran for example should follow, then don't fall for and support the division of Turkey, which is what the mullahs support.

[mamelukesabre]

Boy did you over react.

Why so defensive?

[a_Turk]

It's not you.. Reading some of the ignorant remarks on this thread though, really saddens me. Sorry..

[xzins]

I bow to your greater wisdom and knowledge of the area.

Do you propose Turkish dominance of the region in defiance of Iraq? I would go along with that.

Do you propose eventual Turkish annexation?...I'd go along with that, too.

[a_Turk]

I would apply the Wilson principle regarding ethnic groups and the contiguity of the land they inhabit. Churchill would not agree to that at Lausanne, however, obviously designed to keep a loose thread for the eventual unraveling of the Republic of Turkey.

I'd say extend the borders of the Republic to include Mosul and Kirkuk, and perhaps even the Turkmen stomping grounds. I don't care what happens to the rest. The Kurds would be best of if provided for by the Republic of Turkey, hell we're doing that already with the no-fly zone, and various infrastructural improvements our military provides them with, such as roads, schools, etc. We should have done it during Desert Storm..

That's what I'd do, I may be wrong.. Yet a land locked runt of a state called Kurdistan with nothing other than oil to base it's economy on (sound familiar?) will sooner or later fall under one of the predators in the area. That's why we said that we'd annex it. Better us than anyone else.

And then you hear some of these guys talk about supporting a new Kurdish state with this or that.. All a bunch of dreams, ready to turn into a nightmare..

[xzins]

Personally, I'm fine with Turkey running it. It belonged to them anyway. And they're far more stable.

An independent Kurdish nation, landlocked and oil dependent, can be replaced in my mind with a fair and equal Kurdish state part of a Turkish federation or confederation.

What do you think?

I do not think the US will do anything to alienate their nato ally, Turkey. What do you think Turkey will easily accept?

[a_Turk]

equal Kurdish state part of a Turkish federation or confederation.

The Ottoman empire did not fall apart overnight. The precursor to fragmentation had always been granting this or that group or locale autonomy.. The groups seeking to divide Turkey will not stop at Kurdish autonomy, but continue on to other parts of the country, to other ethnic areas - you name them, we've got them.

What do you think Turkey will easily accept?

Either an Iraq that remains within the same borders as today, or the addition of northern Iraq to the Republic of Turkey, the latter of which will probably meet with some national and serious international opposition.

[a_Turk]

Another condition should be the recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus! LOL! What have you gotto lose? Greek cooperation?

[hunter112]

Turk, as you've noted, many on this thread write out of ignorance, and I include myself at the top of that list. I can certainly accept your contention that most of what Americans know about Turkey and the Kurds comes from flawed sources. It wouldn't surprise me to see an anti-Western agenda being advanced by the reporting done from the area, especially if the letters "CNN" are in the corner of the TV screen!

I'm also fully willing to believe that the majority of Turks and Kurds get along, I had only imagined enmity as a result of the difficulties I have read about over the last decade or two, again, probably through biased sources. And I can appreciate the troubles with having an immature "nation" on your border, one needs only to see our own example here with Mexico to appreciate the situation of a sovereign nation unable to care for itself, trying to leach the life out of its more advanced and prosperous neighbor.

That said, what happens to the Kurds in Iraq? Clearly, they have suffered greatly from Saddam Hussein, surely, after the destabilization of the Bagdad regime, they will want some recompense for their trials. It may be unrealistic to expect them to wait for Turkey to annex them, no matter how reasonable the idea. Will anyone have the power to guide the Kurds of Iraq towards an acceptable settlement of their political situation after the dust dies down from the collapse of Saddam Hussein?

[mamelukesabre]

Nah.

Let Turkey run Syria, and crack down on the militant muslims that are up to no good in Lebanon.

Let Iran run Iraq and maybe even Afghanistan. It would be like reincarnating the persian empire.

The turks and the persians would become very busy with internal problems and the muslims in the middle east would focus less on the jews. When they did have time to deal with international issues, it would probably involve a three way power struggle between the Arabs, the Turks, and the Persians.