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The Atheist Civil-Liberty Union? - Facing the silent artillery of time
NRO ^ | July 12, 2002 | Michael Novak

Posted on 07/12/2002 10:51:03 AM PDT by gubamyster

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1 posted on 07/12/2002 10:51:03 AM PDT by gubamyster
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To: gubamyster
Thought provoking BUMP.
2 posted on 07/12/2002 12:37:03 PM PDT by TightSqueeze
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To: gubamyster
Lets sue the ACLU for religious intolerance and hate speech aimed at religious people.
3 posted on 07/12/2002 12:43:34 PM PDT by Khepera
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To: Khepera
I'm with you. Let's put RICO to work.
4 posted on 07/12/2002 1:35:47 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: Khepera
Problem is, such fellows blink at the point grasped so fearlessly by Nietzsche. If the answer to the Big Question is chance, then all the coherence among the little questions may mean nothing at all — is intelligible only in appearances, and is otherwise a big lie. Courage is not really any better than cowardice; that's only a preference. Hate is not really worse than love; to think so is merely a weakling's prejudice. Freedom is no better than slavery; both are equally absurd. Destructiveness is no better and no worse than creativity.

Most atheists, of course, would rather get rid of God, but still keep the rationality in the universe that comes from actually having a God, Who understood all things before they were, and then made them to be.

Brilliant. Not surprised when I reached the end and saw it was written by Michael Novak. If God does not exist, there is no basis for human dignity. Atheistic talk of the "rights of man" is really meaningless, as we are nothing more than a bag of guts and hormones, and my opinion is worth no more than yours. The ACLU wants to remake America in its image, God help us.

5 posted on 07/12/2002 1:46:35 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Zack Nguyen
If God does not exist, there is no basis for human dignity.

No, there is just no absolute basis for human dignity. A basis could be formed upon a relative frame of reference.

What does arguing such accomplish anyway? It certainly does not prove that a god exists.
6 posted on 07/12/2002 3:40:44 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
A relative frame of reference is only a temporary solution. Basing human dignity upon societal values of the day, for instance, just won't work for very long.

Very few people outside of a mental institution really behave as if there is no controlling moral authority. Neitzche saw the consequences of their being no God and went mad.

7 posted on 07/12/2002 5:27:39 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Zack Nguyen
If God does not exist, there is no basis for human dignity.

We find these truths to be self evident, - we are born with free will, and the ability to use it to distinguish tween right/wrong.
- Thus, - 'do onto others, as you would have them do onto you', is a golden rule, a fit basis for human dignity.
- Without debating about God.

Atheistic talk of the "rights of man" is really meaningless, as we are nothing more than a bag of guts and hormones, and my opinion is worth no more than yours.

True enough, to a degree, -- but if we ALL agree on some basic 'rights of man' - [as per our constitution]. -
-- Does it make any real difference who believes what with respect to religion?

8 posted on 07/12/2002 6:24:30 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Dimensio
Gods existance does not need to be proven to those who cannot see the proof.
9 posted on 07/12/2002 7:38:29 PM PDT by Khepera
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To: Zack Nguyen
Neitzche saw the consequences of their being no God and went mad.

Funny, I see the consequences of there being no gods and I'm not yet mad. I also don't see how the consequences of there being no gods have any bearing on whether or not any gods actually exist.
10 posted on 07/12/2002 8:10:25 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: tpaine
You just quoted the words of Christ, and yet you say that religion doesn't matter. I say that in the end religion is all that matters, otherwise me have only ourselves to look to for what is right and wrong. And in that case what you think is therefore no better than what I think.
11 posted on 07/12/2002 9:25:01 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: tpaine
but if we ALL agree on some basic 'rights of man'

Ageement is a voluntary act. If one is free to agree, one is just as free to disagree. If morality is a matter of agreement, morality can be made, unmade, and redesigned at will.

The madman Neitzsche was right. Hate is no better than love; slavery is no better than liberty where atheism is followed honestly and consistently. You want the good that comes from worship of God, but with worshipping God. You are a freeloader.

Libertarianism is the freeloaders' ideology.

12 posted on 07/12/2002 9:34:08 PM PDT by Kevin Curry
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To: Zack Nguyen
If God does not exist, there is no basis for human dignity.

We find these truths to be self evident, - we are born with free will, and the ability to use it to distinguish tween right/wrong.
- Thus, - 'do onto others, as you would have them do onto you', is a golden rule, a fit basis for human dignity.
- Without debating about God.

--- if we ALL agree on some basic 'rights of man' - [as per our constitution]. - -- Does it make any real difference who believes what with respect to religion? 8 by tpaine

You just quoted the words of Christ, and yet you say that religion doesn't matter.

Didn't say that at all. -- And all religions have some version of the golden rule. - Christs is a fine one.

I say that in the end religion is all that matters, otherwise me have only ourselves to look to for what is right and wrong. And in that case what you think is therefore no better than what I think.

I say that how we actually treat one another is more important than religious opinions. -- I'd bet Christ would also.

13 posted on 07/12/2002 10:02:55 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Kevin Curry
The madman Neitzsche was right. Hate is no better than love; slavery is no better than liberty where atheism is followed honestly and consistently. You want the good that comes from worship of God, but with worshipping God. You are a freeloader.

So are you saying that we should believe in a god not because a god actually exists but because you personally can't justify having a consistent ethical system without one?

Why can't people behave in a specific ethical framework because they find it the best way to function within a society? Why can't they do it because it is a survival advantage? Why isn't mutual survival desire a good explanation for a common "ethic" against murder? Because you can't fathom as much?
14 posted on 07/12/2002 10:05:15 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Kevin Curry
Libertarianism is the freeloaders' ideology.

If you had an intellect worth speaking of, you'd know that "libertarian" and "athiest" are hardly the same thing.

Of course, if you had an intellect worth speaking of, you wouldn't be a party to such a weak, pathetic defense of Christianity as consequentialism. The athiests have already begun pointing out how stupid and irrelevant it is, and you can't answer because it is stupid and irrelevant.

15 posted on 07/12/2002 10:24:30 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: Kevin Curry
"If God does not exist, there is no basis for human dignity."

We find these truths to be self evident, - we are born with free will, and the ability to use it to distinguish tween right/wrong.
- Thus, - 'do onto others, as you would have them do onto you', is a golden rule, a fit basis for human dignity.
- Without debating about God.

--- if we ALL agree on some basic 'rights of man' - [as per our constitution]. -
-- Does it make any real difference who believes what with respect to religion?

Ageement is a voluntary act. If one is free to agree, one is just as free to disagree.

The constitution is a contract, valid till violated. - As an individual you can disagree with its protected rights, but you violate them at your peril.

If morality is a matter of agreement, morality can be made, unmade, and redesigned at will.

Not so kevin. -- We have recognized inalienable rights in the constitution, among them the rights to life, liberty, and property [14th]. You should learn to live with them.

The madman Neitzsche was right. Hate is no better than love; slavery is no better than liberty where atheism is followed honestly and consistently. You want the good that comes from worship of God, but with worshipping God. You are a freeloader. Libertarianism is the freeloaders' ideology.

Weird kevin. Your own hate twists everything you comment on. - Even your religious claims. You're a sad excuse for a Christian, imo.

16 posted on 07/12/2002 10:29:56 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Kevin Curry
>>>>>> CRICKETS on #16 <<<<<<


---Or are you too busy, kevin, --- spouting off about posting witless whines, then doing exactly that? ---
17 posted on 07/13/2002 9:29:11 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine; Kevin Curry
Kevin does that a lot. He comes into a thread, arrogantly asserts his uninformed opinion as though it were well-established fact and then disappears without ever responding to anyone who takes issue with his comments, no matter how well-reasoned their objections. I'm not sure if he's just too prideful to consider that he might not possibly have as much insight on what it is to be a non-believer than an actual non-believer or if he is too much of a coward to defend his baldfaced evidenceless assertions, though I think that it's both: he is an arrogant coward.
18 posted on 07/13/2002 11:14:45 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio; Kevin Curry
Yep, he just played that same silly game on another thread today.

---- Amazing, -- in that he has no honor, - cares less that others know, -- and keeps repeating the same behavior.
19 posted on 07/13/2002 1:19:51 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Zack Nguyen
Neitzche saw the consequences of their being no God and went mad.

From Nietzche's Aphorisms:
"A soul who knows it is loved but does not love back reveals its sediment; it is turned completely bottom side up."
"Insanity is the exception in individuals. In groups, parties, peoples and times, it is the rule."
(And my favorite) - "Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

20 posted on 08/17/2002 9:43:11 AM PDT by FairWitness
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