Posted on 07/09/2002 12:21:52 PM PDT by Stultis
Sufis will give you different answers depending on whether an Islamic cleric is present. Those Sufis who maintain that their faith pre-existed Mohammed claim an origin point common to the Greek mystery cults and the Kaballah.
The ancient gnostic Christians were also known to dissemble in this manner, at first because of the pagan Emperors (who were out to kill all Christians) and later because of the Christian emperors (who were out to kill all "heretics")
Ya just can't win...
The Watermelon Hunter
(a Parable from Idres Shah's "Way of the Sufi")
"Once upon a time there was a man who strayed from his own country into the world known as the Land of Fools. He soon saw a number of people flying in terror from a field where they had been trying to reap wheat. "There is a monster in that field," they told him. He looked, and saw that the "monster" was merely a watermelon.
He offered to kill the "monster" for them. When he had cut the melon from its stalk, he took a slice and began to eat it. The people became even more terrified of him than they had been of the melon. They drove him away with pitchforks, crying, "He will kill us next, unless we get rid of him."
It so happened that shortly afterward another man also strayed into the Land of Fools. But instead of offering to help the people with the "monster," he agreed with them that it must be dangerous, and by tiptoeing away from it with them he gained their confidence. He spent a long time with them in their homes until he could teach them, little by little, the basic facts which would enable them not only to lose their fear of melons, but eventually to cultivate melons themselves."
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My connection is through the philosophy of Aristotelianism, and the breakdown of tragedy in Aristotle's "Poetics." False pride being the key element to all tragedy. A blueprint used by Shakespere and Thomas Hardy with great success because it so accurately reflects real life.
Not only is this a constant theme in the Christian Bible, but later you find Thomas Aquinas also fixated on Aristotle as well.
It is however cloudy, since Christianity was popularized with the Romans through their relationship with Greek culture.
For my money, however, it is a great philosophical and theological milestone, that must have had influence on all the cultures of the times. That would be about 384-322 BC.
Dear Steve, I read with interest your article "My coming to Islam" I am certainly impressed that a Jewish person from the west was convinced that Islam is a better religion. If the rest of the Jews in Israel would follow your example, it would definitely bring on world peace. The jihad would go from the Middle East to Europe than to the USA? You know these people in the west don’t really have lots conviction. They would convert in droves to this wonderful Islamic religion. Especially, if their women had no voice, since the men get all the preferential treatments! My problem is not with Islam as much as it is with Moslems. As a westerner, I am sure you know that all religions were invented essentially by men, and consequently tends to oppress women. Christianity and Judaism over the years have progressed dramatically due to reformists. They swept the barbaric part of their theologies under the carpet, and attempted to forge equality for all humans. For example stoning to death a woman adulterer, or considering a woman on her period to be untouchable.....Jews, and Christians did not drop these nonsense out of their books, they simply ignored them; with the help of their clergies! On the other hand, Islam is unable to reform, unable to drop the barbaric rhetoric, unable to treat women as an equal human, unable to drop the violence against others who are not Moslems, unable to allow its intellectuals to voice their thinking without the threat of killing them. Take for example a young American girl in her wedding ceremony, the priest may commend her to honor and “obey” her husband! However, the priest, her husband and she know for sure that this request is just BS/formality—a remnant from the stone-age. If her husband ever commended her to obey, you know what she is going to tell him! And, you know if her husband went back to the priest complaining that she does not “obey” his commends, the priest would laugh in his face! This kind of new thinking of modern age thinking allows human beings to have free thinking and mutual respect without declaring their stone-age books invalid. Moslems and their clergies are too rigid in their faith; they don't allow themselves or others to question or think about a better way to create harmony on this planet. Harmony is when they concur or force-convert the nonbelievers to Islam. You certainly acknowledge that after a thousand years or so things have changed a little, and you must adjust to them? May be as an intellectual, you can bring this news to your Moslem brothers; they need to change with the time. The Koran or the other holy books are just guides written in the stone-age to help humans conduct themselves in a civil way toward each others! This rigid theology needs to be diluted a bit to allow for modern thinking, as well as respect of ALL humans. You well know that the whole thing about religions, in general is MARKET SHARE! If these jokers want to maintain market share, they have to market themselves to 50% of the earth’s population, the women! Otherwise, they are doomed. All the Jihad and suicide bombing in the world will not assure continuity of this backward faith that systematically discriminates against 50% of their faithful. To this end I welcome you to the "Straight Road / Al Sorat Al Moustaquim" to heaven, where you will find 72 virgins awaiting you! HE HE HE! Ask your self Steve, what about a good Moslem Woman, what is she going to get in heaven? Best of luck---- Phil
This is probably an extremely difficult concept for you to understand, but there are different forms of Islam just like there are different forms of Buddhism, Christianity & Judaism.
In this case, Sufism is an esoteric, mystical expression of Islam, while Wahhabism represents the expression of an exoteric, fundamentalist impulse - the two strains are as different as night as day (or as different as Quakers are from Crusaders).
Are you insinuating that you are an expert on Islam? Ppppplease!
Like I said, this is probably an extremely difficult concepts for you to understand. I could draw another analogy and point out that Unitarian-Universalists and Serbian militia members both base their beliefs on the same Bible, but that might be assuming too much about your ability to infer from context.
Are you insinuating that you are an expert on Islam? Ppppplease!
No, I am not insinuating that I am an "expert on Islam" - I am reasonably well-educated and the proud owner of a public library card, something you might consider yourself one of these days.
I am not a sufi, but their ideas about learning - the implicit aknowledgement that people have to be introduced to certain ideas slowly, for example, or their willingness to discard the outer form and adapt their teaching to whatever culture they find themsleves in - are difficult not to admire.
Yes there are some weird ideas in sufism, eg., the idea that God creates the universe from instant to instant - IMHO this is no weirder than many Christian ideas. De gustibus non disputandum est
Apparently the Sufi poet Jaladin Rumi has been the best-selling poet in the US for a few years now. I've read the Nicholson and Barks translations (Two semesters of classical Arabic 10 years ago don't do me much good nowadays!) and I can see why - as far as mystical poetry goes, it is equalled only by Blake, IMHO.
I am sorry to report that I did not discover hallucinogens until many years after college, however.
A Greek, an Arab, a Persian, and a Turk were walking from one city to another. They had only one coin between them, and they were deciding what food to get from one of the roadside vendors.
The Greek said that they should get stafil.
The Arab wanted inab.
The Persian asked for angur.
The Turk demanded uzum.
They began to argue, and eventually to fight. In the meantime, a literate man walking near them took the coin from them and bought a big bunch of grapes and gave it to them, for that is what they all wanted.
The metaphor is about conflict between religions.
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