Posted on 07/09/2002 11:29:22 AM PDT by RCW2001
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly never said that the Jews had it coming. All I am saying is that large numbers of Polish Jews collaberated with the Soviets, and that the Polish Communist Party was almost entirely controlled by Jews.
Now you're saying they weren't really Communists after all?
When did I say that?
Get with it, man! Your denial of Polish anti-Semitism is as dishonest as it is bizarre.
Your willingness to talk about things about which you know nothing is what is bizarre. You really need to read up on this history.
Just because the Soviets were supported by Jews does not mean that the Soviets had Jews' best interests at heart. Quite the contrary. The Soviets used Polish Jews as pawns to achieve their own political ends. They accepted their support in the begining, when it suited them, and then betrayed them, when that suited them. Do you really find it so surprising that Communists are fickle?
In the case of the pogroms you mentioned, the Soviets staged the murder of Jews so that they could blame it on the Poles and then used that as propaganda to justify their occupation of Poland.
As far as Polish anti-Semitism is concerned, I never denied it existed. Before and during WW2, there was about as much antisemitism in Poland as there was in other allied countries.
Again, your ignorance of history comes through. From the 14th through 17th centuries, various countries of Western Europe such as Spain expelled Jews, and many Jews fled because of persecution. Poland offered them sanctuary. This is a fact which you can easily verify for yourself. That is why there were more Jews in Poland than in any other country of Europe.
There were a lot of Jews in the Ukraine because the Ukraine was controlled by Poland throughout much of history.
I don't deny that. But to claim that Poles were somehow immune from anti-Semitism just because they, unlike much of the rest of Europe, failed to expel their Jews is absolutely ludicrous. Poland was a last choice, in most cases, not a first choice.
In 1483, for example, Warsaw expelled its Jewish population. That isn't, in my opinion, much sign of tolerance. In 1648-49, 100,000 Jews were murdered in Poland. Again, that doesn't seem like the actions of a society free from anti-Semitism. Again, in 1655, Polish Jews were massacred. In 1712, Polish Jews were blood libelled, expelled, and slaughtered. In 1734-36, 1768 and 1788, massive Polish Pogroms murdered tens of thousands of Jews. In 1819, anti-Semitic riots broke out in many Polish cities. In 1881, 1906 and 1911, Polish Pogroms killed thousands. In 1912, Poles organized a universal boycott of all Jewish businesses. In 1937, two years before Hitler invaded, Jews were systematically expelled from Polish universities. During the war, Poles volunteered to exterminate Jews, often seizing the initiative from the Germans. In 1946, there was a Pogrom in Kielce. In 1968, thousands of Jews were purged from positions of power, and forced into exile.
While much of the rest of Europe gradually learned the error of their ways, Polish politics remain largely steeped in anti-Semitism. Just look at Tadeusz Wilecki, Michal Kaminski, Jan Lopuszanski, Witold Tomczak, even Lech Walesa for examples.
By means of dismissing widespread attacks on Jews by Poles.
Just because the Soviets were supported by Jews does not mean that the Soviets had Jews' best interests at heart.
Again, you waffle. Did Jews control the Communist party, or where they pawns? Make up your mind!
In the case of the pogroms you mentioned, the Soviets staged the murder of Jews so that they could blame it on the Poles and then used that as propaganda to justify their occupation of Poland.
I suppose the Soviets also staged the Pogroms of 1906 and 1911 as well.
As far as Polish anti-Semitism is concerned, I never denied it existed. Before and during WW2, there was about as much antisemitism in Poland as there was in other allied countries.
Really? That's funny. I don't remember reading about too many Belgian or English Pogroms in the last 500 years.
Stop putting words in my mouth! I said the Jews controlled the POLISH Communist Party, not the Soviet Union. Stalin certainly was no Jew. The Polish Communist party was a pawn of the Soviet Union and had no real power. Do you know anything about politics this period?
I suppose the Soviets also staged the Pogroms of 1906 and 1911 as well.
Umm, in case you didn't realize, a state of Poland did not exist during this time. Furthermore, pre-WW1 pogroms were carried out by Ukrainians and Russians, not Poles.
If you want to deny the fact that the Soviets were responsible for the post-WW2 pogroms, then you should at least provide some documentation to support your view, as I have for mine. Of course you won't be able to because all the historical evidence supports my view.
Really? That's funny. I don't remember reading about too many Belgian or English Pogroms in the last 500 years.
There weren't any Polish pogroms either, except for Jedwabne, if you can call it a pogrom, which occured under circumstances quite different from anything that was ever experienced in either Belgium or England, and in which only 40 people particpated.
Where did I say they were immune from anti-semitism?
Poland was a last choice, in most cases, not a first choice.
It was the only choice.
Regarding the specific instances of violence you mention before the 20th century, I don't know enough about them to comment. If you provide documentation and sources for your examples, I would gladly look at them. I am highly skeptical that you accounts are accurate, as I have encountered much anti-polonist propaganda that highly exaggerated and even in some cases fabricated alleged cases of persecution.
No one is saying that Poles are completely innocent. My only contention is that on the whole, Jews in Poland were not treated any worse than one might expect a religious and ethnic minority to be treated anywhere else in Europe. In fact, they were treated a little better.
In 1881, 1906 and 1911, Polish Pogroms killed thousands.
Please provide documentation. All the pogroms I am aware of were carried out by Russians and Ukrainians.
In 1912, Poles organized a universal boycott of all Jewish businesses.
First of all, I think you have your dates wrong. The boycotts I'm aware of happened after WW1. Many industries in pre-war Poland were controlled by Jewish cartels who colluded to keep gentiles out of the market. For example, in the town my grandfather lived in, Jews owned all the grocery stores. If a gentile tried to open one up, all the Jewish store owners would cut prices to below cost to drive the gentile out of business. Boycotts of Jewish businesses were reponses to such practices. Plus they were not sanctioned by the government, but only initiated by certain political parties, and most people ignored them.
Fnally, Poland was not the only allied country where Jews were discrimimated against in the marketplace in the interwar period. Ever wonder why all the rich Jews in New York lived on Central Park West and not on Fifth or Park Avenue?
In 1937, two years before Hitler invaded, Jews were systematically expelled from Polish universities.
A gross exageration of something that occurred in only a few universities. Jews were over-represented in universities, so some attempted to practice a kind of affirmative action. While I don't sanction this practice, your account of it is innacurate.
During the war, Poles volunteered to exterminate Jews, often seizing the initiative from the Germans.
Lies.
In 1946, there was a Pogrom in Kielce.
Staged by the Soviets, as I previously demonstrated.
In 1968, thousands of Jews were purged from positions of power, and forced into exile.
You have got to be kidding me. Yes, in 1968 the Polish Communist party, a puppet of the Soviet Union, purged itself of Jews, most of whom welcomed the opportunity of escaping to the West or Israel.
And before you accuse me of "waffling" or contradicting myself, the composition of the Polish Communist Party in 1968 was very different from what it was in the 1940's.
Polish politics remain largely steeped in anti-Semitism.
Lies. If Poland is so "steeped in anti-semitism", how could a man whose mother is Jewish be president?
Just look at Tadeusz Wilecki, Jan Lopuszanski,
Oh come one. Is there a country in Europe today that does not have fringe politicians with anti-semitic leanings? Do you know how much of the vote these cats got in the last election?
Michal Kaminski, Witold Tomczak
You are fond of slander. I defy you to find a single anti-semitic statement made by either of these men.
even Lech Walesa for examples
Yeah, Lech Walesa has gone off the deep end. Most Poles seem to think so too. Did you bother to see how many votes he got the last time he ran for president?
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