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VOUCHERS: THE PARENT TRAP
TORCH, TEXAS EAGLE FORUM | MARCH 1999 | CATHY ADANS

Posted on 07/05/2002 6:49:32 AM PDT by capecodder

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To: ned
I meant: I myself think IF it does...
221 posted on 07/06/2002 12:10:45 PM PDT by summer
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To: summer
sustantially = substantially
222 posted on 07/06/2002 12:14:35 PM PDT by summer
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To: summer
Finally, was the GI bill for everyone?

I don't have any quarrel with the GI bill, but I recognize that it is an entitlement that is extended to veterans. And I don't care if people want to call it welfare. It is what it is.

And it helped a lot of people.

223 posted on 07/06/2002 12:17:49 PM PDT by ned
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To: ned
Yes, it helped a lot of people. I think vouchers have the potential to help people to get an equal education when they are in a place where they can not get it. Others have different ideas about vouches. I am not sure I can go the way of expanded voucher use for everyone, simply because I think some of those people should give good or outstanding public schools a chance first.
224 posted on 07/06/2002 12:22:15 PM PDT by summer
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To: capecodder
Bump for later reading.
225 posted on 07/06/2002 1:16:01 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: ned
No doubt several of the posters on this thread know full well that voucher programs are welfare and support them anyway. Some supporters fo vouchers like to point at state voucher programs and claim that they have done none of the harm predicted by critics of a federal voucher program. State programs differ from federal programs in the way a million differs from a billion.
226 posted on 07/06/2002 2:06:08 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
Wait until vouchers become a federal program. You can't deny that once an entitlement is offered by the federal government it becomes a "right" of the welfare leisure class.

What makes you think someone is more likely to feel "entitled" to a voucher just because that voucher come from the feds as opposed to it coming from the state or the school district? If they don't want the voucher now (and our district's program isn't even at its maximum yet), what makes you think they'll want it then?

Also, right or wrong, vouchers aren't spun like they are a welfare program. That's because voucher opponents (more often Dummycrats) would have a lot of nerve going there considering how they've allowed some of these same families to get welfare under AFDC.

227 posted on 07/06/2002 2:23:25 PM PDT by mafree
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To: Twodees
That will change the minute a private school cashes a federal voucher. That's what this is going to become before you know it; a federal welfare program.
You're assuming that the Feds will demand those changes. Considering that programs are already in place in Cleveland and Milwaukee without those demands/changes, I would have to figure otherwise.

And as for not breaking my bank account, I only propose that the monies that I would otherwise spend on public schools (i.e, those tax dollars that I'm already spending) be spent on private schools.

What I'm proposing is using it based on a collegiate model. In other words, this opens the playing field. It won't eliminate the haves/have nots situation; on the contrary - those schools that do not choose to participate will price themselves up and out of that arena. The schools like Choate or Sidwell Friends will price themselves completely out of the general marketplace.

The public schools will be forced to compete by cutting costs. Among the costs that will end up going away are those extortion fees paid to the unions. The NEA will try to strike, but in a painful process, the schools (who want to compete and survive) will have to eliminate those costs. Using the same model, those that want to exceed will have to pay for quality teachers. Those who are just passing time for a check will end up by the wayside.

The rising tide will raise all the boats. This is what the GOP is interested in. It is a far cry from a welfare program. What I'm interested in isn't a hand-out. I don't care if it's a tax rebate-based voucher or credit. I don't want to have to be forced to pay money into the failing public schools, as I am forced to now.

The NEA will wail and cry and insist that they are working in the best interest of the children, but we all know otherwise. I'm sorry you can't see that.

228 posted on 07/06/2002 2:43:00 PM PDT by mhking
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To: mhking
I do see the NEA and the other parasites wailing, but I can't see this accomplishing a thing. You still haven't explained how using tax revenues to give vouchers to the people paying the taxes in order to allow them to pay tutition at a public school does anything but put bureaucrats in the loop where they aren't able to reach right now.

If you want your kids in private school and you want to use the money you're having to pay in taxes instead of turning it over to the county or state, then that should be what you're promoting. By supporting this shell game, you're still giving the wastrels your money, but you expect them to increase it for you somehow so that you can pay private school tuition and they can get their cut as well. The only way for your state to give you the money for tuition and get their cut to pay their do-nothings is to go to the feds for funds.

I'm surprised that you think your state can magically increase the money you're paying them so that it still covers all their current waste, tutition for your children and salaries for a new bureaucracy. Why not think this all the way through for yourself instead of judging it on how loudly the NEA screams about it?

Look, if we make them stop taxing those of us who don't use their schools, we won't need vouchers.
229 posted on 07/06/2002 6:58:02 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
I'm surprised that you think your state can magically increase the money you're paying them so that it still covers all their current waste, tutition for your children and salaries for a new bureaucracy.

You're automatically insisting that the "current waste" will continue under a more competitive program. The public schools will be forced to compete. They will be forced to cut wasteful spending and budgeting. They will be forced to get rid of excess overhead. It'll either be that or die.

The NEA, NAACP and all kinds of others will wail and gnash their teeth and fuss and have a veritable fit. I think the Feds could administer this just as well as the states. I think there would be plenty of overhead in the beginning, but the larger problem (and the primary reason that the Feds would have to get involved) is that there are states (like Georgia's Democratic administration) where the governor and the state administration have vowed not to make vouchers available to the citizenry.

I would prefer the vouchers to be administered on a state level, in any event. State collegiate level programs (like Georgia's HOPE Scholarship program) have a much better track record than Federal programs; I am sure that would remain the case on the grade school level. You get no arguement from me on that. I insist, however, that once the schools are forced into a competitive situation, that as a direct result of decreased costs, that the NEA will lose much (if not all) of their power. The schools will (in many cases) dump union teachers and hire from outside their ranks; once this happens, the better teachers will find positions in schools where they desire results - the ones who are only there for a check (and today find themselves protected by the Unions) will fall by the wayside.

I have to reiterate - I have no desire to pay for substandard public schools where wasting money is the norm. All I am asking is for me to have a say in where my dollars go. Of course, by asking that, the Dems turn me (and everyone else here who wants that) into some kind of heartless pariah. Now if asking for the opportunity to direct my own school dollars is a form of welfare, then maybe I don't understand what welfare is.

230 posted on 07/06/2002 8:45:28 PM PDT by mhking
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To: Twodees; mhking
Some supporters fo vouchers like to point at state voucher programs and claim that they have done none of the harm predicted by critics of a federal voucher program. State programs differ from federal programs in the way a million differs from a billion.

"I think the Feds could administer this just as well as the states." - mhking, post number 230.

Their eyes are wide open, Twodees. A lot of people who support vouchers want the entitlement to education and they want to be able to spend that entitlement at private schools. Whether they are in the majority or not remains to be seen, but I think that they understand exactly what it is they want.

231 posted on 07/06/2002 8:58:37 PM PDT by ned
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To: mhking
Aw, please. The public schools have never been "forced to compete" and won't be forced to do any such thing just because a new welfare program is instituted. Right now, public schools are losing the comparison with private schools and homeschoolers. They have been shown to be inferior consistently for 20 years and there has been no change in the way they do things except in the amount of money they waste. Letting the same government thieves control private shools that now control public schools is ridiculous and that's exactly what vouchers will end up doing.

Your state doesn't have the money to give a voucher to every student enrolled in the public schools. They'll ask for and receive federal dollars to play this game. Naturally, you know this and it doesn't bother you at all. You're saying now that this should be a federal program. I expected this kind of liberal nonsense out of the other voucher proponents on this thread, but you're surprising me here.

I'm not really surprised that this is such a hot item with republicans right now. It just reinforces what I've always observed about republicans; that they oppose democrats and think that alone can make them conservative. Thanks for showing me that you would rather have the federal government pick my pocket than to tighten your own belt, sacrifice some budget items and pay the tutition for your own children.

Yeah, you boys are just soooo much better at reducing the size of government than the democrats are. Excuse me while I throw up.


232 posted on 07/07/2002 6:13:20 AM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
You are so wrapped up in a faulty definition of "welfare" that you can't see the forest for the trees. From your definition, "welfare" amounts to any payment from the government in any way, shape or form. You keep ranting about vouchers being nothing but a welfare program; I can't look at it that way - it is nothing of the sort. Until you get off of that kick (and the associated rants about Republicans not being real while discussing that notion), we can't even get to square one.

You don't understand what and where these will benefit. That's fine. But you're as bad as the guy last week who got on this RINO kick with J.C. Watts.

You've got no clue as to what belt tightening is - otherwise, you wouldn't make such a statement. I'm not going to go on a rant about how hard my life is; that's immaterial here.

What is material is that you and I are on the same page about public schools being inferior to private schools. Given that, what is the problem with demanding not to have to pay into such a system?

Not only that, what's wrong with getting my money back out of that system?

Here's the other side of the coin here - the vouchers cannot and will not be able to pay the entire freight for most private schools. This alone will keep quite a few in the public schools right where they are.

I'm done with your circular logic. When you come back from throwing up, let this one alone. We obviously aren't on the same page overall, and won't be.

233 posted on 07/07/2002 6:37:00 AM PDT by mhking
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To: capecodder
Nonsense. Vouchers are the single best chance for parents to help this generation of cartoon kids become functioning, productive adults (the only chance for parents in central cities). We shouldn't let unrealistic fears and concerns keep us in the pockets of liberal teachers unions.
234 posted on 07/07/2002 6:47:33 AM PDT by Whilom
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To: mhking
You asked a question, though. There's nothing wrong with demanding not to have to pay into the failed public school system. Let's do that instead of letting them continue to soak us while giving us a damn little "school stamp" that isn't even going to pay tuition.

You get that done at the county level, BTW. State and federal politicians have no business even being in the loop on this either. I could teach you a thing or two about belt tightening, too but you don't want to hear it.
235 posted on 07/07/2002 12:37:12 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Whilom
No, let's not allow unreasonable fears of creating another tax funded monster stand in the way of the GOP picking up some liberal voters. That's the most important thing on earth, ain't it?
236 posted on 07/07/2002 12:41:03 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
No, let's not allow unreasonable fears of creating another tax funded monster stand in the way of the GOP picking up some liberal voters.

The liberal voters of the teachers unions? Or Black parents in central Cleveland? We willhave school choice -- and that means vouchers. The public school system must adapt and change -- or become warehouses for the dysfunctional (teachers and students). Those public schools that survive and thrive will meet the competition by emulating it -- educating youngsters.

237 posted on 07/08/2002 12:41:57 PM PDT by Whilom
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To: Whilom
The liberal voters of the teachers unions? Or Black parents in central Cleveland?

The liberal voters of every color and background who have awakened to the fact that the schools suck, but still want nanny government to fix it for them.

We willhave school choice -- and that means vouchers.

Why does that mean vouchers? We can have school choice right now without vouchers by closing down the DoEd and returning control of the schools to the county school boards. Without federal help, the NEA is busted and has no control. The choice issue belongs to the counties first. We have a much better chance of changing things at the county level concerning school taxes than we do at the state or federal level.

The public school system must adapt and change -- or become warehouses for the dysfunctional (teachers and students).

You seem to be in need of a remedial course in current events. Public schools in many areas of the country have been warehouses for children and asylums for incompetent bureaucrats for decades. Functional children become dysfunctional in those warehouses.

Those public schools that survive and thrive will meet the competition by emulating it -- educating youngsters.

Yes, that's the goal, but that goal can be met more quickly by throwing off government and union influence rather than by feeding it an adjusted diet.

238 posted on 07/08/2002 5:31:05 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
You are not going to get closure of the DOE and we are going to get vouchers. Follow your program and we end up with same-old same-old -- with some whining about told you so. Vouchers will take us a step in the right direction.
239 posted on 07/09/2002 7:00:33 AM PDT by Whilom
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To: capecodder
They are the Trojan Horse that will bring government control into private schools.

Thanks for reposting this.

240 posted on 07/09/2002 7:12:28 AM PDT by Diva
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