VOUCHERS: THE PARENT TRAP

TORCH, TEXAS EAGLE FORUM | MARCH 1999 | CATHY ADANS

[Twodees]

Wait until vouchers become a federal program. You can't deny that once an entitlement is offered by the federal government it becomes a "right" of the welfare leisure class.

So, it hasn't happened yet where you taught. Want to bet it doesn't happen once this latest welfare scam becomes part of the welfare state's catalog of benefits?

No offense to your "deserving families" but giving them vouchers to pay for something they haven't earned at the expense of those who have earned it amounts to welfare. Vote for welfare if you like. I don't support it.

[Twodees]

How is it nonsense? You're favoring raising my taxes to hand tutition money to the deserving poor and the welfare witch with her gangster teenagers alike. How are private schools going to keep the gangsters out once federal money has come into the picture?

I swear, RD. For someone who wants to present himself as a conservative, you sure love welfare. Answer this question: What does a welfare program like vouchers have to do with reining in the NEA or improving the quality of education overall?

[mhking]

Nobody has presented a single thing to show that vouchers will provide any choice for most families. Vouchers are welfare. That's all they are. What vouchers will give us is the gangster kids of welfare witches in the classrooms of our private schools. Once something like that becomes a federal program, then the welfare sucking leisure class has a "right" to it from then on.

I realize I'm coming in on the back side of this conversation, but this comment struck a chord with me.

First point - the private schools won't put up with the foolishness from the "gangster kids" that the public schools have to, simply because they are required to serve the community. Those monsters will be able to be completely removed from the situation. The private schools have the leeway and (even more importantly) the will to make sure that the students that are there want to be there to learn. They also will discipline appropriately. None of this slap on the hand foolishness. And because they do, the parents ("not my child") who turn a blind eye to this will lose out, simply because the private schools will tell the parents, "Your child cannot stay here." ("Your kid IS the weakest link, goodbye!")

What we are left with is a situation where I am able to send my children to schools where I know they are getting a good education, without breaking my bank account.

Now, if you're telling me that the Feds will demand that the private schools that accept these vouchers will be forced to adhere to rules that remove their autonomy, that's a different matter altogether. There is no empirical evidence in the Cleveland and Milwaukee situations (where voucher programs are already being used) that the Feds have stepped in with that regard (even though the Dems and the NEA want them to -- badly), and no evidence that this would change in regard to programs in other states.

The major problem is that in many states that state officials will refuse to create the programs, or deliberately "dumb down" the programs in order to prevent well-intentioned parents from using them.

Here in Georgia, the Democratic governor, Roy Barnes, along with the head of the state NEA chapter have gone on the record as opposing vouchers, and have said publicly that they will do whatever is necessary to prevent them from being promoted in Georgia. I'm sure that we'll end up with a watered down program that people will find difficult to use at best.

As for your other point - dismantling the DOE - I don't have a problem with it, provided there is a level ground between public and private institutions. If the DOE is gone, then I want to have the freedom to send my children to an institution that will keep up with what the universities are demanding from entering students. Most public schools would quickly fall back from those requirements. Voucher programs - on the state and local level - would allow me to afford to send both my older children to schools where I'm confident that this fall-off won't occur.

[summer]

bttt

[rdb3]

RTR.

[capecodder]

Re: your post #165.

Bush may not be requiring the assessments now but his brother will want the data in return for fed funds.

All in good time.

[summer]

If past experience demonstrated that more parents in failing schools were using vouchers, I would agree with you. But, with less than 5% of parents opting for a voucher out of FL's failing schools, I don't know if you are correct.

[summer]

You are right about private schools - they will kick out an unruly kid in about 5 minutes. Not so for public schools.

[capecodder]

Your post #193 is very well stated.

How will politicians behave when such a vast opportunity for expansion of their powers opens up for them? I think we both know the answer to that question.

I think we all know the answer to that question.

[Austin Willard Wright]

Thanks for the answer. I think this is the best response to those who make the comparison. Though I would certainly allow the states to experiment with vouchers if they wish, I would oppose such a program in my own state....though I would feel differently if tax credits were proposed.

[Twodees]

Thanks, CC.

[Twodees]

Probably, if the subject was a tax relief plan which exempted those of us who don't use the public schools, neither of us would have anything to say except "what's not to like?". To me, it's absurd that this nonsense has come to replace the dismantling of federal control over education in conservative discussions about schools.

I agree that the states are free to try this kind of thing, but the feds need to stay out of it. As soon as it becomes apparent to everyone involved that vouchers do nothing but expand the list of welfare state entitlements, it will be a lot easier to effect change at the state level to get rid of it. Once this is started as a federal program, we'll be stuck with it for a few generations before politicians even agree to discuss how to "scale it back".

[Twodees]

As it stands now, the private schools don't have to allow problem kids to enroll. That will change the minute a private school cashes a federal voucher. That's what this is going to become before you know it; a federal welfare program. With government money will come government interference and micromanagement. That's a sure bet.

What exactly do you mean by saying that you will be able to send your kids to private school without breaking your bank account? Whose bank account are you going to break, mine? Private schools cost money. You and I are both already paying enough in taxes on two separate levels to cover the $6k+ the public schools are spending to warehouse a child. This should be about those of us who are paying taxes and also paying private school tuition getting a break from the taxes, not about handing the people who aren't paying taxes the money to send their kids to school with mine. The idea of having any level of government give me a damn voucher with which to go pay for my daughter's tuition is repugnant to me. Let them give me a tax credit to reflect the number of children I'm paying to have educated privately instead of burdening their public school system.

How on earth did this ever become a conservative ideal, anyway? This is asset redistribution, also known as welfare. In order to give you a voucher, everyone's taxes are going to have to go up. When everyone's taxes go up, fewer people will have the option of one parent staying out of the work force in order to home school. That's one unintended consequence right there. Use your imagination and you'll see more of them hiding here and there.

The NEA will be dead in the water without a federal DoEd. That's the easiest and quickest way to bust their trust. Get another welfare scam going and within a year or two the NEA will be running it. They're big now, but they could be even bigger if this voucher thing goes federal.

[ned]

With government money will come government interference and micromanagement. That's a sure bet.

Yes, indeed. That is the likely outcome.

I also think you're right about vouchers as a new entitlement. Where we might disagree is that I believe that most people who support vouchers probably recognize all of this and support vouchers anyway. With their eyes wide open.

[summer]

I think you and others have your eyes CLOSED. I disagree with everything Twodees said - because everything that poster alleges is sure to happen has NOT happened at all her in FL, a state where we have had vouchers for 4 years., SO, IMO, Twodees is WRONG on every count. Furthermore, I do not support "welfare" or entitlements or whatever else you may cynically call vouchers. Some people call them scholarships. I support that. Were you also against the GI bill?

[ned]

Education for children has been an entitlement in this country for decades and I don't object if you call it welfare. I just agreed with the poster that there is a more or less inevitable tendency for the receipt of public funds to be accompanied by regulations and restrictions.

And I added that I think most people who support vouchers recognize that it will become an entitlement (i.e., all children will have a right to participate) and that there will be some regulation of their use.

I didn't intend to even offer my opinion as to whether vouchers are a good or a bad idea.

[summer]

ned, thanks for your thoughtful post, but I would just point out that what you (and others) keep predicting, below, has NOT happened in the time we've had three voucher programs in FL:

And I added that I think most people who support vouchers recognize that it will become an entitlement (i.e., all children will have a right to participate) and that there will be some regulation of their use.

In FL, vouchers are for the following childres: disabled, or low income, or in a failling school. Period.

[summer]

childres = children

[summer]

failling = failing

[summer]

Finally, was the GI bill for everyone? Or just GI's? In the same vein, I do think the nature of vouchers will change sustantially if everyone can use them, and I must tell you, there are several people on this forum who sound like they just can't wait for that to happen. I myself think when it does, then, the voucher program can not be called a scholarship anymore. It is something else.