US Loses To Germany 1-0, But Shows The World USA Soccer Is For Real

ESPN ^ | June 20,2002 | Self

[AGreatPer]

"It was clear to me that the German defender on the goal line, at the pole, allowed to ball to hit his arm and rebound back into play"

If you look at the replay in slow motion, the defender moves his arm behind his back as if to hide it after he realizes the ball hit his arm.
That tells me there was no intent from the defender. So, in the spirit of the law, no intent, no penalty.

However, in the US this would have been called a hand ball on all levels of play.

[RodgerD]

It doesn't matter, South Korea is obviously going to win it all, the referees will make sure of it.

No kidding. The Korean place in the semi's should be marked STOLEN PROPERTY!

[Kaslin]

My sister called me from Germany and said our team was playing a better game then the Germans. We can be proud

[capitan_refugio]

"defender moves his arm behind his back as if to hide it"

The immediate reaction of a guilty party!

[capitan_refugio]

I think you are right when you say the center ref just missed the play. Believe me, although as a center you are usually tracking the ball, on a play like that he might have been watching the pushing on the wall, or been shielded by players. The refs can't see everything - those are the breaks.

However, if he does see and calls "handling,"(on the goal line) in that case, he MUST send the player off. The reason is, if the offending player does not commit the penal foul, a goal would have scored. By stopping the goal (PK not withstanding), the offending player has committed "serious misconduct." If you review the FIFA rule book, you will see that they even diagram ths situation. Maybe that is why he (center ref) did not make the call.

[MotleyGirl70]

HERE WE GO STEELERSPACKERS HERE WE GO!!!!!!!!!!!

[WL-law]

If the hand was there first, then by definition of causality, it can't be there with the intention of handling the ball, as the player didn't know the ball was going there before he put his hand in that position.

Here's what you're missing: a player doesn't stick his hand out away from his body, ESPECIALLY IN THE PENALTY AREA, because he can't legally control that space with his hand -- he risks a hand-ball penalty kick, yes? But on the goal line behind the goalie the German defender intentionally puts his hand OUT accepting the risk, because at worst he gets called and draws the PK, but if he doesn't do it and the ball passes him its an immediate goal. SO he INTENDS to precipitate contact with the ball, else he'd keep it close in, like all other defenders do in the box. Hence, he INTENDED to hit the ball with his hand.

[AGreatPer]

"By stopping the goal (PK not withstanding), the offending player has committed "serious misconduct."

Yes, that is the crux of it. And, your point that he (ref) missed it. I guess they call it the "rub of the game" or some silly thing.

There is something that is being overlooked here. The US players objected and objected again, and again. Once they saw the determination and conviction from the ref, they backed off and started play. This shows a great descipline from the players and excellent coaching. They went back out and played and tried to get another goal.

I have told players for years from little tykes to college level, say your piece quickly then SHUT UP. Because, you ain't gonna win an argument with the refs.

[longshadow]

Here's what you're missing: a player doesn't stick his hand out away from his body, ESPECIALLY IN THE PENALTY AREA, because he can't legally control that space with his hand -- he risks a hand-ball penalty kick, yes?

I respectfully disagree. First of all, the defender's hands/arms were no more than 6 - 12" from his sides, which is a common position when you need balance in order to react quickly to a ball. Secondly, a player has a right to put his arms, feet, legs, head, butt, knees, etc. wherever he wants to, consistent with playing the game, so long as he doesn't run afoul of some rule. As long as the hand was where it was BEFORE the ball was deflected into it, in doesn't rise to the level of intentional handling (though, as "general_re" has pointed out, it still should have been called and a penalty kick awarded, not because he put his hand there, but because the handling, though inadvertent, none-the-less materially altered the course of the play.)

And no, defenders don't run around the penalty box acting like their arms were taped to their sides. They have to maintain their balance, and without being able to move their arms, they wouldn't be able to react to a fast cut or deft fake.

But I'm going to defer to "general_re" on this, as he's a trained ref; I'm just an aging amateur player with lots of games under my belt, and one of the most important lessons I've learned from all those matches in which I've participated is to never argue with a guy wearing a striped shirt who is armed with a yellow and a red card.

[luvbach1]

Thank your for your logical and complete answer re ball crossing goal line. You obviously know soccer, which I don't; however, the rules are not very complicated. I don't find the rules for American football that complicated either. Will be watching the final match at least. It is an exciting game that I hope will gain a greater following in US.

[luvbach1]

Threads only become long because members are interested in posting on the subject.

[luvbach1]

The "hand ball" was not discovered until the replay, thus could not have initially been the objection. And there was a legitimate question whether the ball had crossed the line so naturally that would have been the first thing raised. I think it got about 3/4 across even with the hand interfering.

[luvbach1]

I am supporting the Germans if for no other reason than if they take the cup it would add luster to the 1-0 US loss.

[luvbach1]

I don't think that proves the German deliberately used his hand. I think it's just as possible he hid it when he realized the ball hit it because he was afraid it would be ruled a hand ball.

[dogbyte12]

Looks like the rest of the world is noticing our talent. Quick list off my head of clubs that are putting in bids for American Players.

Damarcus Beasley: Charlton has already offer 2 million pounds. Middlesborough, Perugia, Sunderland, and Aston Villa are all in the chase
Landon Donovan: Bayer Leverkusen excercised their option, and he will return to Germany as soon as the MLS season ends in October
John O'brien: Both Barcelona and Bologna want to take him from Ajax
Brian Mcbride: Wolverhampton, Everton, and believe it or not AC Milan are interested in him
Tony Sanneh: Lazio and Roma

We have some amazing kids coming out of the system too. We had a 17 year old play today for D.C. United against Boca Juniors from Argentina, who is supposed to be a very good midfielder. D.C. United also has the very young Bobby Convey and Santino Quaranta.

Our 2006 team will make our 2002 side look like child's play.

[freepsolo]

Ooh - I like the nationalist innuendo.

The one most important sport of the Islamist Raghead is... Soccer (aka Football).

The strategem of Soccer in the mind of an Arab - is the way to rules of engagement on the Battlefield.

USA should win the World Soccer Championship to show that FREEDOM overcomes all.

Even though Arabs like Soccer above all other sports... I notice that none of the Radical States can even get into the Semi's.

[longshadow]

Will be watching the final match at least. It is an exciting game that I hope will gain a greater following in US.

Ditto, on both accounts.

[bootless]

Hi Illbay,

Interesting post ... The score just doesn't tell the whole story--and that, to me, is a WEAKNESS in the game.

Let me state at this point that I do enjoy soccer, didn't play it as a kid, wish I did. I've coached a few youth teams (my son's) and was assoc. prod. of a youth soccer video. Got to meet Eddie Pope briefly at a national coaching conference - nice, quiet guy, but always hard to tell at conferences like that.

My point is that you're correct - it is hard to determine the character of a soccer match by the score, but it's equally difficult to do so in baseball unless you read the box scores. For instance, a 1-0 game may have had a TON of baserunners due to errors, walks, wild pitches, etc., but runs were saved in time by the defense once the runners were on base. Or it could be a very close no-hitter or even a perfecto.

OTOH, a 16-15 game could either be a nine inning slugfest in Coors Field with the wind blowing out, or it could be the game where the Cleveland Indians game from behind in the 9th, and put 12 runs on the board to beat the mighty Seattle Mariners (an amazing game - I may not have gotten the score right). Numbers do not tell all ... and even a 9-5 score may not show how close the game may have been ... perhaps the bases loaded and Lance Berkman at the plate...?

At any rate, I was sorry to see Germany win this one, but am very proud of our Team USA (including San Jose Earthquake Landon Donovan!).

[bootless]

Does the ball merely have to break the line of the goal as in American football, or does it actually have to go into the goal?

All of the ball has to completely cross the line, under the crossbar to be a goal. It is also a goal if your keeper is standing on the line under the crossbar, and catches a ball kicked toward the goal, and then steps back a step from the momentum. I found that out while coaching second grade soccer! Our intrepid goalie made the catch of the day, snagging a ball that was just MASHED toward him. 30 seconds to go. Good thing he was a kid with a good temperament!

[1rudeboy]

We don't need to encourage kids in soccer any more than they already are.

You are absolutely right. We should encourage them to drink Big Gulps and play Nintendo until the only sport they can shake their fat a***s in is baseball.