***Smart Case Stumps Police***

One of the most notorious instances of this was the big feminist women's conference in Utah back when the ERA was under consideration. Male church leaders "had" each ward's Relief Society send a dozen or so representatives to the conference,

You strongly imply that there is some kind of force being applied by Mormon men to make the women do the bidding and of the men, that they are just puppets not allowed to act on their own, and that is just not the way it is. If that is what you think then you are most certainly NOT familiar with out culture, practices, history or doctrine.

These women fully agreed of their own free will with the Church's stand on the ERA. If you don't feel that way it doesn't mean that they were forced to feel or act differently than you.

Now she had no role whatsoever in her husband's business, but it was just automatic that if he said he wanted her to go on the trip, then she was to drop all her other plans immediately and go.

So, you think that she should turn down a rare chance to share a bussness trip with her husband for a tennis tournament? Sounds to me like they have their priorities right, just because you don't share those priorities doesn't mean she was somehow forced. The fact that she was doing a wonderfully efficient job shows that she has not been kept from developing her talents and abilities, from pursueing personal interests etc.

it does look odd, and sometimes a bit ominous, to outsiders.

That's a shame, I feel sorry for those who feel that some kind of power strugle between the sexes is normal, and unity and cooperation is odd. Your comments tend toward fostering the idea that there is something ominous to it though. I trust you don't intend it to be taken that way.

No man leads in the Church without the consent of those men and women he leads. Women play an important and vital role in both the family and the Church. It is not at all accurate to state or imply that the women are repressed or excluded.

I didn't mean to imply that any force was involved. However, there is plenty evidence on the record that many of the women at the ERA conference had no opinion at all on the subject until they were told by their men what opinion to have. And, just in general (i.e. not specific to Mormons), women who married young, have several children, and no way of supporting them on their own are much less free to disagree with their husbands than women in other circumstances -- like anyone they'll tend to rationalize decisions as being their own to avoid confronting the distressing fact that they are trapped. This is not to say that I think most of the women at this conference were "trapped" -- just that the social norm displayed would make it extremely difficult for the few who were "trapped" to escape.

This whole episode was, as I recall, over 20 years ago, at a time when the Church was still into a pretty heavy reaction against the social upheaval of the 1960s and 1970s. Furthermore, the women who showed up for the conference were probably more conservative and passive about following directions from men than the average Mormon woman at that time. I know that the Church endorses a good deal more flexibility in women's roles now than it did then, and Mormon women have picked up a greater sense of entitlement to self-direction from the trends in the society around them. However, it's also true that since that time, the priesthood has taken complete control of the Relief Society, which was once a completely independent organization, with its own money, uncensored publications, internal choosing of its leaders, etc. If you doubt that, please read up on it.

I'm not at all anti-Mormon, but try to see the faults and drawbacks of the Church and its culture just as objectively as I see the faults of other groups, and just as objectively as I see the positive side of various groups. Overall, I think the Church is an overwhelmingly positive institution, and those areas in which I think it's fair to say it goes too far, are generally areas in which I'd fault mainstream U.S. society and many liberal churches for going way too far in the opposite direction. Nobody's perfect!

plenty evidence on the record that many of the women at the ERA conference had no opinion at all on the subject until they were told by their men what opinion to have.

WHAT? Just how do you prove someone has no opinion on something? Mindreaders? I can certainly understand them not wanting to reveal their opinions early and expose themselves to hostility and discrimination from the other women there who disagreed but that's not the same thing. I haven't yet met a woman, Mormon or not, who wasn't able to form an opinion on their own.

women who married young, have several children, and no way of supporting them on their own are much less free to disagree with their husbands than women in other circumstances

It never stops my wife. :) You are totaly overlooking what Mormonism teaches men, that their wife is an EQUAL partner, and that he has a responsibility to provide for them EVEN IF THE MARRIAGE ENDS. LDS wives have an obligation to voice their honest opinions when decisions are being made, and any LDS man who would pushish her in any way for disgreement would is acting totaly contrary to his religion.

I know that the Church endorses a good deal more flexibility in women's roles now than it did then,

The Churches position on the roles of men and women have not changed one bit, they are the same roles as ever before. Changes in the social fabric of the nation require more flexibility in HOW those roles are fulfilled than in the past, but the roles are still the same.

the priesthood has taken complete control of the Relief Society, which was once a completely independent organization, with its own money, uncensored publications, internal choosing of its leaders, etc

Changes have been made in the administration of the affairs of the Church, but the RS has never been independent of the priesthood, if it ever was, it would not then have been part of the Church.

I'm not at all anti-Mormon

I belive that, but I also belive you are rather closed minded (on this issue at least). You seem to have simply made up your mind that LDS women are repressed and dominated and force everthing you come across to fit that conclusion. You project your own feelings about things onto them and don't consider that they might feel very different about it and do things willingly that you would not. You ignore everything taught to the bretheren about respecting and honoring your wife, being an equal partner with her, SEEKING her opinion and advice etc. As a result, you give a very false and distorted portrait of us.

I don't think Illbay lives in Utah. As far as the Relief Society goes, the main purpose it was organized was to give charitable service to those in need. I am waaay too young to have remembered when the Relief Society was like, but your information is incorrect in that the general President of the Relief Society was decided internally by women. Not true, the general President of the Relief Society was always called to her position by a prophet of God, the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, through inspiration from God . And each Relief Society president in the wards and branches of the church are called by their respective bishops and branch presidents after much prayer to God and consideration. You make it sound as if the men took over the Relief Society so that they would have more control over the women, and that is simply not true.

As far as the purpose goes, the Relief Society is more able to render service to those in need today than ever before in the history of the Church. It is exciting to 30,000 women turn out to make sanitation kits for those in need from war or acts of nature, such as hurricanes, floods, etc. The women in the LDS church do many exciting things to serve others, there are as many ways to serve others compassionately as there are women. I can give you countless examples of how women serve.

And I'm not letting the LDS men off the hook here either. They hold the priesthood of God to bless the lives of others, not to lord it over women. But the priesthood is given as a tool for men to grow and become better men, husbands, and fathers, and followers of Christ. And women partake of those blessings as wives, mothers, daughters, and sisters of those men. And I'll quote one of my favorite passages of scripture from the Doctrine and Covenants section 119 35-44.

35 Because their ahearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson?

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile?

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy cconfidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

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