New Boy Scout troop serves Islamic youth

The City Paper (Nashville, TN) ^ | June 4, 2002 | Megan Moriarty

[Clint N. Suhks]

It’s not required for a Scout to have a uniform but it’s expected.

[Non-Sequitur]

"It doesn't matter if you're Islamic, Israeli, Hispanic or what have you," Green said. "Scouting is offering the same message or program to all groups — regardless."

Well...almost all groups regardless.

[Clint N. Suhks]

Yes I do, I also think Christian Scientists are nuts too. Withholding medical treatment is immoral.

[RonF]

True enough, and I don't require Scouts to wear a uniform in my Troop. But I do confess I push for it fairly hard, and we try to maintain a "uniform bank" of outgrown uniform parts so that the younger Scouts can get pants and shorts, anyway, without having to buy them. I also let the junior leaders know that they are expected to wear all the uniform parts they own to all meetings and outings, a requirement that has been approved by the PLC.

[Clint N. Suhks]

Well...almost all groups regardless.

That's silly, do you think he meant all religious groups??? The practice perversion doesn’t count.

[Clint N. Suhks]

You can’t kick a blue haired kid out of a troop unless there are written membership requirements against it, but you can tell the scout he’s wrong and he doesn’t meet the standard of scout spirit like you did with your long hair.

[Non-Sequitur]

Then he should have said so.

[RonF]

Yes, I could tell the Scout that he's wrong to wear blue hair because he doesn't meet the standard of Scout spirit. Except, I won't, because I don't believe that.

The comment on earrings is interesting, too. A few years ago the theme for Cub Scout Resident Camp (the official theme as received from National) was "Pirates". Whereupon numerous staffers, including the Camp Director, got one of their ears pierced and work studs or small earrings, as English pirates were known to do....

[Clint N. Suhks]

Yes, I could tell the Scout that he's wrong to wear blue hair because he doesn't meet the standard of Scout spirit. Except, I won't, because I don't believe that.

Why?

The comment on earrings is interesting, too. A few years ago the theme for Cub Scout Resident Camp (the official theme as received from National) was "Pirates". Whereupon numerous staffers, including the Camp Director, got one of their ears pierced and work studs or small earrings, as English pirates were known to do....

Pirates illegally killed and stole and if they all jumped off a bridge Ummm..

Permanent self-mutilation is OK for leaders and Scouts? If the theme was punk rock and the leaders did eyebrow piercings??? Is your ear-piercing better than someone’s eyebrow piercing? Since uniforms are not required, what would prevent a boy from wearing a dress? None.

[Coleus]

It's funny, when kids join little league to play soccer and baseball, they are in full uniform from sneakers to baseball cap, all the way. Same goes for the band, cheerleading, and color guard in high school, full uniforms, all the way.

As a matter of fact, I've seen kids come from little league practice to the boy scouts in thier complete baseball uniform only to change into a scout shirt. Despicable, isn't it? But when it comes to scouting consessions are made, I wonder why?

[ZULU]

"He said although the format of the Islamic and American clubs were similar, Jordanian Boy Scouts were able to incorporate their own culture into the program."

Bomb-making is now a merit badge.

[RonF]

Because I don't believe that hair color or length has any application to whether or not a Scout conforms his beliefs or behaviors to the Scout Law, Oath, Motto, or Slogan. I don't see anything in any of those that are affected by hair length or color, outside of keeping it neat and clean (A Scout is Clean) and whether or not his parents or spiritual leader (should I happen to know who that is and his or her opinion on the matter) have an issue with it (A Scout is Obedient).

There has been some debate on the Scouting lists as to whether or not "Pirates" is, in fact, a proper theme for kids to emulate. Maybe not. But, that was the theme at the time, and I believe it's still in the 5-year Cub Scout Camping theme rotation.

Different kinds of self-mutilation have different levels of social acceptablity, and in different areas of the country at that. In our culture, it's almost expected as a rite of passage that girls or young women will get a single piercing on their ear lobes. Past that, you get into multiple earlobe piercings, which no one seems to think much about, all the way to nose piercings, eyebrow piercings, and tongue studs. My Troop's Northern Tier Crew Interpreter up at Charles L. Sommers Canoe Base up in Ely, MN had a tongue stud. Didn't seem to affect his ability to help us paddle the lakes, find the portages, ford passages, cook our meals, examine animal tracks, look at the sky and predict what weather we'd be facing and it's effect on our plans to travel or camp, and in general learn to appreciate the wilderness of Canada. Would I think it's terribly clever for a Scout to get a bunch of piercings? No. Would I ding him for Scout Spirit? Not as long as it wasn't disruptive of the Troop's program, and didn't present a safety issue (no infections, nothing that might get caught in branches like big hoop earrings, etc.). Where I live, in the Chicago suburbs, most piercings would be a momentary sensation, but there wouldn't be any effect that would last more than the first few minutes of the first meeting that a Scout showed up with one.

All the way back to Baden-Powell, uniforming has not been absolutely required for Scouts to wear, although it's obviously been strongly encouraged. I'd ding a kid on Scout spirit if he owned a uniform and didn't wear it, but not if his parents couldn't/wouldn't buy it. I'd deem wearing cross-gender apparel as being disruptive and would ban it, however. I can do that; I'm the Scoutmaster, and I'd expect the Troop Committee to back me up. After all, its a private organization, not a public facility like a public school. So, unlike a principal, I don't have to have all the rules spelled out and inflexibly applied. I get to exercise my judgement on a case-by-case basis. If parents don't like it, they can leave and go to another Troop, or try to persuade the Troop committee to replace me.

Now, if I'm arbitrary, I'd lose moral authority among the youth and parents, but if I'm acting within their consensus, or (as generally happens) on the right-hand edge of that consensus, I'm O.K.

Athletic uniforms for boys of Scouting age are usually much cheaper than a Class A uniform (absent any safety equipment), and are much more poorly made. Also, kids are usually forbidden to participate unless they wear them, a stricture that Scouters are encouraged not to make or enforce in general. So, that's why you see kids always wearing their athletic uniforms, but not their Scout uniforms. Unfortunately. My kid's the Scoutmaster's son, though (a position that I myself occupied), so he has and wears Class A to every meeting.

[Alabama_Wild_Man]

"...Bomb-making is now a merit badge..."

Great - -- - just great . . . that's what I was afraid of.

[RonF]

"He said although the format of the Islamic and American clubs were similar, Jordanian Boy Scouts were able to incorporate their own culture into the program."

I didn't understand that part of his comment. Did he mean Jordan's Boy Scouting program, or a BSA Troop consisting of Jordanians?

[Clint N. Suhks]

…a Scout to get a bunch of piercings? No. Would I ding him for Scout Spirit? Not as long as it wasn't disruptive of the Troop's program…I'd deem wearing cross-gender apparel as being disruptive and would ban it…Now, if I'm arbitrary…I get to exercise my judgement on a case-by-case basis.

First of all, you can’t make up your own rules, there must be a policy that doesn’t allow such things either way. That’s pretty clear in the SM handbook under Membership Requirements. That’s not to say the committee wouldn’t back you in creating a policy and having the CO approve it.

Second, you are being arbitrary. How is cross-dressing any more disruptive than self-mutilation, blue hair or tattoos as long as the scout is not disrupting? A woman with earrings is a specious analogy because women are not men/boys, obviously such a comparison lends more credibility to cross-dressing.

There’s no distinction other than your own personal moral relativism. How would the guide have been any less capable with a tongue-stud and sporting a dress? The answer is these practices are objectively counter-culture personal statements against the norms of society and that is not demonstrating Scout Spirit. In the absence of policy, the only thing you can ding the cross-dresser on is rank advancement for scout spirit. Like homosexuality, if one perversion is protected, it’s hypocritical not to allow the others in society.

BTW, I grew up in Hinsdale.

[RonF]

First of all, you can’t make up your own rules, there must be a policy that doesn’t allow such things either way. That’s pretty clear in the SM handbook under Membership Requirements. That’s not to say the committee wouldn’t back you in creating a policy and having the CO approve it.

I'll have to go back and re-read that. However, before I get the chance to do so, I'll comment that there's a difference between membership standards for the BSA, and membership standards for a unit. I can ask a boy to leave the unit (in fact, I can remove him from the unit just by crossing his name out on the charter renewal form before I sign it), but he's still perfectly free to join another unit.

Second, you are being arbitrary. How is cross-dressing any more disruptive than self-mutilation, blue hair or tattoos as long as the scout is not disrupting?

Based on my understanding of the Scouts, Scouters, and parents in my unit, it's my judgement that while a Scout with a piercing would be only momentarily disruptive, a youth (or adult!) cross-dressing would be permanently disruptive. Perhaps not in some communities, but certainly in mine. And, as you say, the CO and unit Committee would most likely back me up.

There’s no distinction other than your own personal moral relativism.

One of the joys of being a Scoutmaster is just that - exercising my judgement. Which I get to do based on rules from National and my local Councils that are quite purposefully written to grant sufficient room within them for Scouters to use their own judgement in a subjective fashion. Unlike the public schools, Scouters still get to use common sense in their jobs.

How would the guide have been any less capable with a tongue-stud and sporting a dress? The answer is these practices are objectively counter-culture personal statements against the norms of society and that is not demonstrating Scout Spirit.

The norms of our society as I understand them is that appearance is less important than performance. Which is not to say that appearance is completely unimportant. Various piercings are certainly on the edge of society, but in my judgement, not beyond the edge.

My view is that getting various piercings are saying "I'm different". But Scouting allows some differences among it's members. In fact, it encourages them. No team is successful if all it's members have the same talents, and also lack the same ones. The Patrol Methods explictly is designed to show that.

What I don't see piercings saying is "I reject all our society stands for." Don't forget that I'm positing a case where the Scout not only wears a piercing, he also wears a BSA uniform. Wearing that uniform also makes a statement: "I'm a Scout. I believe in the Scout Law and Scout Oath." If the Scout shows Scout Spirit otherwise, taking his turn at doing the post-meal cleanups, helping to instruct the younger Scouts on the finer points of Totin' Chip and lashings, etc., then the uniform and the rest speak louder to me than a non-hazardous piercing.

Whereas, in my own judgement, cross-gender dressing does say "I reject common culture, I don't accept the SO and SL". Arbitrary? Perhaps. There are differences among various kinds of behavior. Some are acceptable. Some are not. Deciding between the two is a judgement. My judgement of how broad the range of acceptable behavior is would certainly seem to be different from yours, which is fine. Maybe some families would join your unit instead of mine because of that. Maybe the opposite would occur as well. I'd be fine with it, either way. But, in either case, it's a range. The BSA has some black-and-white policies, and I observe them, even the ones I don't agree with. But I don't see anywhere in BSA policy that would indicate, to me, that by thinking that piercings don't cross the line, that I automatically think that cross-dressing don't either.

[Saundra Duffy]

I have mixed emotions.

[Coleus]

True enough, and I don't require Scouts to wear a uniform in my Troop>>>

So are you the SM of a rag-tag motley crew?