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Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'
Aviation Week & Space Technology | May 24, 2002 | David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie

Posted on 05/24/2002 11:33:06 AM PDT by The Big Dog

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To: The Big Dog
What makes the F-22 not obsolete now?
101 posted on 05/24/2002 9:55:42 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: ReveBM
Well said.

Too bad the world isn't as nice a place as we would all like...

102 posted on 05/24/2002 10:06:38 PM PDT by null and void
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To: Poohbah
Sorry boys, but we are gunna have to scrap the F-22 program. I've ordered a bunch of nifty rescue beacons to put up on the southern border with Mexico to help illegal immigrants invade our country.

Hugs 'h kisses!
--GW
103 posted on 05/24/2002 10:13:29 PM PDT by RebelDawg
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Stealth, ability to supercruise, LPI radar, thrust vectoring nozzles, more computing power than a whole squadron of F-15's, plus about a thousand other things. It isn't so expensive for nothing. You get what you pay for.
104 posted on 05/25/2002 7:22:44 AM PDT by The Big Dog
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To: Poohbah
Maybe we need to nationalize our defense contractors? Worked so well with everything else.
105 posted on 05/25/2002 8:04:50 AM PDT by Bogey78O
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To: The Big Dog
You nailed it. And since a large part of the cost is R&D divided by # of planes, the more we buy, the cheaper they are per plane. 300 vs 500 vs 700 makes a big difference.

The article is BS. There are a lot of reasons why the F-15 will stay top dog for the next 10 years. Heck, the F-16 has significant upgrades scheduled for the next 15 years. But the planes we're looking at buying now are for 2025+.

106 posted on 05/25/2002 8:06:35 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Bush2000
Yeah, Microsoft does the same thing too unfortunately.
107 posted on 05/25/2002 8:07:10 AM PDT by Bogey78O
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To: Dead Dog
Our coming unmanned Mach 3+/G 9+ aircraft will provide intercept capabilities for such mischief. These technologies are maturing fast and will deploy before GW is out of office. Our fast movers will have really fast movers flying halo missons for our frontline piloted air superiority aircraft. The points to our spears will be extremely sharp, long, and lethal.
108 posted on 05/25/2002 8:29:50 AM PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: SevenDaysInMay
You're dreaming. That IS the way of the future, but it is way over 6 years from fielding!
109 posted on 05/25/2002 6:14:30 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Bogey78O
Yeah, Microsoft does the same thing too unfortunately.

Welcome to reality.
110 posted on 05/27/2002 10:48:00 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Captainpaintball
Teh 15 seconds is a design parameter. In combat, the survival of a tank is of 15 seconds. So it is tweeked to perform to its most for 15 seconds. After that it can either burn out or get shot, because it has done its job. It is not an actual time, it is a design parameter.
111 posted on 05/28/2002 2:42:36 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: Soliton , ctonious
This is not BS. from an engineering technology, the SU is far ahead of its much older design and design philosophy F15. In exercises with asian nations, the F15 lost. All performance parameters point to a sheer superiority of the SU. Add to the SU a good radar and good tactics, and it is unbeatable. Even latest generations Eurofighter, Grippen and Rafale do not beat it, airplanes far superior to the F15 and that are touted to exports worldwide to US foes.

When you see that lesser performing non-vectored-thrust German Mig29s now regularly kill German F4s that have superior radar and missiles, you quickly find out that maneuverability is more important than radar and missles. The F15C simply cannot out maneuver older Mig29 or SU27, let alone the modern thrust vector SU30 with improved radar and missles.

In the end, it is a question of statistics. We have to have a superior statistical kill because our foes are far more numerous than we are and can sustain far more losses than we can.

112 posted on 05/28/2002 2:50:48 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: strider44 , belmont_mark
Your comment is the only valid one on this thread. As a flight instructor in general aviation, sacrificing flight hours for technology is indeed nuts. It's like getting a good gun but not the bullets. It's ridiculous.

Throw that GPS out the window, learn dead reckoning, visual reckoning and electronic navigation instead. May not be as accurate at first, but a compass with a good stop watch is always reliable. Add to that experience and execution speed, and you gain accuracy with the human brain quickly. Because instead of being distracting punching in routes without any situational awareness aside from awareness of how the computer works, the pilot actualy is looking to program his airplane and environment, and not just a dum computer. don't get me wrong, computers are great to awake a pilot from a situational awareness lapse or temporary confusion, as the human brain is not perfect either, but in no way does the computer teach a pilot to modelise visual, computational and signal data into a geometric picture and precise fences and targets, all the while flying the airplane, communicating and having fun.

Add to that the stress of combat and combat situational awareness, that is, navigating/flying with respect to a moving geography (i.e. enemy airplanes that end up being geographical coordinate that keep moving), you got yourself in a serious mess if you cannot compute or you just hope the computer and radar will effectively do the tracking for you. It's nonsense, a pilot just cannot afford to look down at his radar all the time. A pilot needs to predict and compute the positioning of various enemy aircrafts all the while performing other tasks and looking at other targets. In the end, the integration is done within the pilot's brain while the pilot can only look at one thing at a time. That means the brain must compute and predict what other parameters and geographies are looking like all the while verifying whether this or that parameter tells him he was accurate. The pilot's job, being one of verifying an expectation, as opposed to gaining knowledge of a situation, forbid the reliance on computers and radars, but impose it to always do dead reckoning and only using computers and radars to verify his predictions computed in the black box.

As a marksman in training and aero engineer, I also learned a lot about the US engineers' Rambo like fantasies that have nothing to do with reality. At the university, engineers were like consuming women chosing this or that gadget because it looked cool, instead of creating a fertile ground, within a program or project, for the users and pilots of the devices to pick, choose and design what they wanted. The specialization of those shoping mentality engineering freaks in the US is really killing the tax payer. Add to that the intellectual arrogance and fraternal tribalism, and you have one stupid bunch of people. Sure, they know how to re-invent the wheel, and no wonder they are assigned to such tasks, if not it'd be total chaos in there. Reinventing the wheel, however, is highly inefficient way of disciplining and teaching US engineers.

Whenever you have this co-worker engineer who comes to the range, you see the old guys with revolvers, and this guy coming with this spiffy gear from Rambo-StarTreck, and every one starts laughing. My instructor always teach them a humiliating lesson the hard way, in order to put them back on their spot and to see if they are cut to deal with a man's responsibility at the range.

What he does, he goes to the 400 yard range. He looks at the new guy's gun with scope and all and lets him shoot one. The instructor then berates him how he uses the action, the way the kid cannot even use his scope and then takes the thing himself, sets it up in 5seconds, and shoots a couple rounds, readjusts for drifts and then shoots about 5 rounds in or near the bull's eye (if the gun is any good). Then he hands it over, reteach everything to the new guy and lets him shoot one. The kid shoots and misses the target. He wiggles the gun around, puts it in different positions, squints until his fatigued eye leads start to shake and well shoots another one and misses again. It's always the same scenario.

Then the instructor feigns to get tired of it all. He takes his own gun, without a scope, shoots some, hits the target, with one bulls eye out of every 3 or four shots. The kid with the scope cannot even understand how the scope does not help him better than this scopeless marksman who keeps shooting good groups. Then the kid, if he is smart, starts to think hard about his rambo mentality and starts respecting revolvers and the old bolt action rifle. He learns or asks to learn how to shoot without a scope, he learns how to model his action before doing them, he learns how to adjust, and he starts shooting the target, without the scope. Then he goes with the scope, and he starts shooting the target and does a couple bulls eyes. With the scope he learns how to predict his movements and shakes without the scope. Ultimately the scopless performance approaches that of the scope performance. It is not always good, but this scopeless performance and experience is far more valuable than expenses in technology indeed. It's like putting a 5 year old in charge of a boat because the 5 year old can play video games and can do that with the big boat. Utter nonsense.

113 posted on 05/28/2002 3:37:09 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: The Big Dog
I agree with those who point out how stilted this piece is. May as well write about how the F-14 could kick the crap out of an Me262.

However, with that said...............we DO need the F22 and the JSF. Air superiority is mandatory for our way of conducting warfare; we OWN the skies.

If Rumsfeld is looking to cut something, I'd eliminate the B-2 in a heartbeat. Nearly $2 billion per aircraft is worse than ludicrous.

114 posted on 05/28/2002 3:53:17 AM PDT by RightOnline
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To: The Big Dog
Same holds true for the B-52. Just think of it. The airforce will be flying 80 year old bombers by then.

Cheers.

115 posted on 08/28/2002 9:33:09 AM PDT by Sundog
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To: ctonious; Soliton
Agreed. As a USAF veteran of highly classified programs - I can guarantee that critical data identifying combat vulnerabilities is never revealed at face value.

This is not critical data. It's been long known that one can evade dopplers by flying 90° to them and that high maneuverability is a plus in maintaining energy while doing this evasive maneuver.

This article is no bull at all. It does not take a nuke scientist to figure the F15 is no match for the SU30.

116 posted on 08/28/2002 10:30:12 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: Servant of the Nine
The F-22 will effectively be obsolete by 2015.

If the foot soldier is still good enough today, the F-22 will be good enough for decades to come, especially as a tailless mid-range to long range bomber. The F-22 is ahead of the pack and is not going to be obsolete anytime soon. In fact its competition is touted as being the UAVs, but that is a pipe dream as UAVs' critical datalinks make them visible and choreographed. In fact the F-22 is the best airplane to go with stealth UAV, as a discrete independent operations' platform for UAVs.

Right now we are no match for airplanes like the Swedish Grippen, Euro Typhoon or Russian Su30. The F-22 comes in the nick of time to maintain our dominance over these new technologies that are just coming out.

117 posted on 08/28/2002 10:39:31 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: lavaroise
That was well-written and you are bang on target.
118 posted on 08/28/2002 10:45:10 AM PDT by RightWhale
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To: RightOnline
However, with that said...............we DO need the F22 and the JSF. Air superiority is mandatory for our way of conducting warfare; we OWN the skies.

If Rumsfeld is looking to cut something, I'd eliminate the B-2 in a heartbeat. Nearly $2 billion per aircraft is worse than ludicrous.

B2s are more important the JSF, considering that they can carry nuke strikes in less than 10 min over enemy territory while orbiting. It is the prime first strike capability of our nuke forces. Without it, we cannot have viable missile defense, period.

The F22s can have their own ranged increased too and their speeds enable such bombing runs at closer and smaller airstrips.

Right now we have maneuverable F15Cs with a good radar facing a radar evading SU30 that has a radar in the front and in the tail boom, enabling it to shoot missiles straight backwards, forwards and over the shoulder. In other words, while doing its evading maneuver, the Su30 is still capable of tracking the F15 that has lost it, firing missiles rearward before it has even finished its turn in the F15C's tail to track and insure the kill. The F22's ability to evade radar and maneuvaribility is hence a must. We cannot afford to slack in matters of capabilities as more and more 3rd world nations are acquiring nukes and nuke strike capable SU30s.

THe JSF on the other hand is a bit of bull sh!t as it is touted to be able to replace things like the F111 bomber in Australia. The JSF has very limited capabilities. It is a good bomb truck but has too short of a range. It has not the maneuverability of the F22 hence making it a dubious fighter, the only thing for it being stealth and the vertical takeoff version for forward bases scattered and hidden in territories without runways. Vertical takeoff puts a limit on takeoff weight though.

119 posted on 08/28/2002 11:03:00 AM PDT by lavaroise
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