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NRA backer Dingell favors gun control bill (Text of bill - HR4757)
Detroit News/LA Slimes ^ | 5-24-02 | Eric Lichtblau and Nick Anderson

Posted on 05/24/2002 9:23:12 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan

Edited on 09/03/2002 4:50:32 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Lazamataz
Until members of the GOA start telling me about the good things they do instead of worrying about what the NRA does or doesn't do, they aren't getting another penny from me. The GOA better understand that the members of the NRA also hold memberships in other gun groups or as one friend of mine said, it's easier for the NRA members to change what the GOA does than for the GOA to change the NRA.
41 posted on 05/29/2002 11:58:46 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Shooter 2.5
JPFO is pretty decent though. And I simply LOVE the SECOND AMENDMENT SISTERS!
42 posted on 05/29/2002 12:10:41 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Lazamataz
I like JPFO and the Second Amendment Sisters but I think they are more like public relations firms. They can get the message out better than any other group because they can't be accused of being a bunch of beer swilling rednecks. Have they actually done anything? It's hard to prove a negative on the numbers of voters they have converted. I'm just glad they're out there. I tried to help the SAS but the head of the North Texas area had a job change and moved. I think they're down in Austin. It makes more sense to have the group at the state capitol.
43 posted on 05/29/2002 1:00:41 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: from occupied ga
Well said at #35. The compromising position taken by the NRA since '68 is directly responsible, imo, for most of the gun gabbing infringments since then.

If the republican party & the NRA would have stood their ground then, and forced a constitutional showdown, we would not be dying the death of a thousand 'regulative' cuts now.

And, -- as you also mentioned, compromising principle is NOT what FR is about.

44 posted on 05/29/2002 1:24:35 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Shooter 2.5
I like JPFO and the Second Amendment Sisters but I think they are more like public relations firms. They can get the message out better than any other group because they can't be accused of being a bunch of beer swilling rednecks. Have they actually done anything?

Hey, don't knock getting the message out, especially to the neutral masses. In fact, I think that's critical to the future of the Second Amendment. The more voters who no longer are ambivalent about the gun issue, but are at least vaguely pro-firearms rights, the better off we are. They don't have to be Second Amendment activists, just as long as they think and vote against anti-gun candidates.

45 posted on 05/29/2002 1:59:26 PM PDT by Chemist_Geek
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To: Chemist_Geek
I won't knock any gun organization and I already said that I like JPFO and the SAS. I will try to get the members of any group to understand that we have to work together. I'm surprised that you mentioned me, considering the whining from others on this thread. It would help it they discuss the positive of their groups instead of the constant complaining of what the NRA does or doesn't do.
46 posted on 05/29/2002 2:19:21 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Shooter 2.5
I noticed that you didn't repeat the rest of those quotes so let me do it for you.

Have they actually done anything? It's hard to prove a negative on the numbers of voters they have converted. I'm just glad they're out there.

You notice I said that I'm glad they're out there and I wanted to help the SAS. Again, for the upteenth time, we have to work together.

47 posted on 05/29/2002 2:23:05 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Shooter 2.5
I won't knock any gun organization and I already said that I like JPFO and the SAS. I will try to get the members of any group to understand that we have to work together. I'm surprised that you mentioned me, considering the whining from others on this thread. It would help it they discuss the positive of their groups instead of the constant complaining of what the NRA does or doesn't do.

I apologize for coming down so hard on you. I've been banging my head against walls all day, at work and online.

I agree with you that we have to work together, and each organization plays its own role. I also agree that sniping at each other only helps the anti-rights mob.

48 posted on 05/29/2002 2:48:41 PM PDT by Chemist_Geek
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To: Chemist_Geek
No problem with me. I do have a problem in all the whiners who act like their gun group somehow isn't involved with the same laws that passed as another group. There is a web site that keeps a column about the gun laws that passed and they blame the NRA. The other gun groups have been there at the same time. During the '68 gun law, I think the NRA was nothing more than a rifle club at the time. All I'm asking is that the whiners tell me what their group is doing and forget about what the NRA does or doesn't do. If their group is so good, they don't need the NRA.
49 posted on 05/29/2002 3:48:27 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Chemist_Geek
Here is what NOT 'sniping' at those who would compromise has gotten us. -- Vin S. - as quoted above:

"The NRA endorsed the original federal handgun control bill of the 1930s; the 1968 Gun Control Act; and the Brady Bill with its waiting periods and now its so-called "instant check" national gun registration (for long guns as well as revolvers.) NRA executives seem happy so long as they continue to collect dues and contributions from the outfit's reported 4 million dull-witted members, who apparently never tire of the siren song, "We got you a better compromise than if we hadn't been here; we only bargained away a few more of your rights this year."

50 posted on 05/29/2002 3:56:10 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Shooter 2.5 ; Lazamataz
SAS has done well in Michigan, in paticular back when the MMM was strong.

I haven't heard as much lately from them ouside of the shop and shoot, but they still frequent the gunshows. Good educational group.

JPFO is the same way, but I've never seen any leaders of theirs in Michigan outside of their lit. I do know a few members of JPFO though.

51 posted on 05/29/2002 4:45:36 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan
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To: Dan from Michigan
Yep, centralizing everything is bad. And the domestic violence crap is a laugher.

Maybe they should come up with a way to track down Arab terrorist instead. Be more helpful wouldn't it?

Or how about spending the money on border security? Looks to me as if this needs looking at.

Anybody for compelling the Federal government to track non-citizen visitor and deport those that overstay there welcome? Might be money better spent since these wackos want to track people.

Dingell is a useful idiot at best.

tarpon

52 posted on 05/29/2002 5:03:07 PM PDT by snooker
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To: Dan from Michigan; Lazamataz
I found this just a few minutes ago:

It is annoying to hear that they have us fighting amongst ourselves. IPSC people are fighting IDPA people, and so on. If you want to fight somebody, I can point out some people in Congress who are worthy of your attention, but fighting against ourselves is nothing but destructive. Col. Jeff Cooper

53 posted on 05/29/2002 8:13:05 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: tpaine; shooter 2.5; Dan from Michigan
All of those legislative attacks on our rights would have occurred anyway, whether or not the NRA existed. If the NRA hadn't existed, however, then those attacks would have been much more severe. Of course the NRA "endorsed" those legislative acts; that was the price of stopping much worse legislation.

Don't these people sniping at the NRA understand that? Or are they more interested in bad-mouthing the leader because they aren't?

When one's house catches on fire, does one complain and whine about the fire department not being able to save the whole house, but only the first floor? No, one ought to be glad that there is something still there to rebuild upon.

54 posted on 05/29/2002 8:21:00 PM PDT by Chemist_Geek
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To: Chemist_Geek
All of those legislative attacks on our rights would have occurred anyway, whether or not the NRA existed.

The NRA existed all right, big time, back in the early '60s when the gun attacks started after the assassination. - and I was a long time member. - They caved, & compromised in '68, and we see the result today.

If the NRA hadn't existed, however, then those attacks would have been much more severe. Of course the NRA "endorsed" those legislative acts; that was the price of stopping much worse legislation.

Bull. There was no 'worse'. the Rhinos & the NRA gave away the farm in '68 for sheer political gain. They 'compromised' their soul, their principles, and they've been doing the same ever since.

Don't these people sniping at the NRA understand that? Or are they more interested in bad-mouthing the leader because they aren't? When one's house catches on fire, does one complain and whine about the fire department not being able to save the whole house, but only the first floor? No, one ought to be glad that there is something still there to rebuild upon.

Yep, just "wait till next year". The rebuilt RINO party will think up some neat new regulations to infringe your rights. Thats the same party line we've been hearing since they stabbed Goldwater in the back. Insanity is in believing it.

55 posted on 05/29/2002 9:18:35 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine; shooter 2.5
If the republican party & the NRA would have stood their ground then, and forced a constitutional showdown, we would not be dying the death of a thousand 'regulative' cuts now.

I first joined the NRA in 1962, and was a member in the political ballyho the led up to GC '68. The NRA did not stand firm then and oppose it, I remember some comment, maybe in the Rifleman saying the the 4473's were a "compromise that we can live with" or something to that effect. When CG '68 passed I quite the NRA (for the first time) in disgust that they seemd not to be interested in fighting against gun control. Unlike some of the more naive people in this forum, I'm old ehough to see where compromise is going. It only goes one way with the final end point being Sara Brady's and upChuck Schumer's wet dream, a society where "only the police and military are armed" in other words a totalitarian police state.

One of the naive ones (to be charitable) says

We dont have the votes. When you don't have the votes you have to compromise

He's part right and part wrong. He's right about not having the votes. But he's wrong about "having to compromise". You don't have to compromise. You put pressure on the politicians to change the votes. All legislative bodies consist of three categories of legislators.

  1. Those who will vote against gun control every time (the good ones)
  2. Those who will vote for gun control every time, the upChuck Schumers, the Diane Feinsteins, the Rod Blajogevitche's etc. Don't waste any time or resource on them.
  3. And finally those who go whichever way the political wind is blowing at the moment, but represent mostly progun districts,(Near as I can tell there aren't too many swing types who come from anti-gun districts (like NYC and Chicago)
The number threes are where you concentrate you effort. The NRA has enough resources to blanket multiple congressional districts with leaflets describing a Kongress jerk's voting record and anti-guns stance with the suggestion that the voters let the Kongressman's office know exactly what they think about that. It is good to mention specific votes on specific bills and intrepret just what that will do. I guarantee that there are several stages that every politician who has been treated to this sort of thing (which as far as I know the NRA doesn't do because it doesn't want to offend politicians). FIrst will come the bluster - "How dare they do this to me. I voted what I though my district wanted (yeah right)" If you compromise at this stage, you lose.

What you do is send out a second leaflet with the Kongressman's remarks vis a vie the first one. Then will come the back pedaling and lies - "It was a mistake. I didn't read the whole bill. I didn't realize the implications" If you compromise at this stage, you lose.

Now is time for a third leaflet or mailing again putting the Kongressman's excuses in the most unfavorable light possible. At this point the Kongressman will usually come around and say what do you want. Then you simply tell him that your organization wants him to vote against any anti-gun bills, and co-sponsor progun legislation. Your allies in the legislative body will usually have a pro-gun bill or two waiting in the wings looking for co-sponsors.

Anyway this is what you can do rather than compromise. Use the resources to change the votes. Don't throw up your hands and say we have to compromise.

56 posted on 05/31/2002 6:41:21 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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To: from occupied ga
And after you do all of that, you still don't have the votes. Why? Because 95% of the gun owners want gun control by their very actions of doing nothing. There are too many gun owners who will gladly vote in the gun grabbers because they listen to what their unions tell them, they want the handouts and they couldn't care less about who wants their guns. Ask one of those people and you get the same reaction from them: "They'll never get my gun". How many times have you heard that one?

If even 25% of the gun owners gave a d@mn, there wouldn't be a gun law in this entire country.

57 posted on 05/31/2002 6:57:35 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Shooter 2.5
If even 25% of the gun owners gave a d@mn, there wouldn't be a gun law in this entire country.

Sadly I find myself agreeing with you on this one; however, the pressure tactic does work. Our local group used it on Bob Barr here in GA who was making anti-gun noises for a while a couple of years ago. After a dose of pressure, specifically leaflet pressure, he stopped that nonsense. It won't work on dedicated communists like the loathsome disgusting repulsive Cynthia McKinney, because their base is the hard core wealth redistributionists, and they've figured out that the more power the government has, the more likely they are to get some of the loot robbed from the productive elements of society. It would probably work on Jack Kingston, another RINO, but our group didn't have the resources in Kingston's district to do it. The NRA does and won't - more the pity.

58 posted on 05/31/2002 7:36:20 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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