"Summary Evaluation of Arminian Theology" -- Dr. Paul Enns

Moody Handbook of Theology (Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press) 1996. | Paul Enns

[JMJ333]

Calvin's successor in Geneva, Theodore Beza, developes the doctrine of double predestination (which includes positively predestining the non-elect to damnation.

Well, this is totally different from Christianity as it has been believed and taught since the time of Christ. Orthodox Christianity views God as a loving savior, not a stern judge who creates people only to damn them.

Christ's death on the cross for ALL mankind earned us grace. And any action performed in a state of grace and united to Christ is meritorious, which in turn earns a person more grace and helps a them grow holier and closer to God.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Much of the debate centers, perhaps inadvertently, upon a fallacious conception of causation as being only aligned with the time dimension we mortals know. That conception forces us into the ridiculous dichotomy of the no-control-of-history God vs. a frozen chosen who don't worry about witnessing. Hugh Ross has done some interesting analysis about what "might" (of course we cannot know exactly) be happening behind the scenes of our universe with a God who has invoked multiple time (causation) dimensions. It is an existence proof of the possibility of a creation which comes down (as we see it) in Calvinist terms without violating the tenets of Scripture and without vitiating man's power to choose without being forced by God.

[drstevej]

You reflect the Roman Catholic understanding of these issues.

[JMJ333]

Donning my asbestos....

=)

[drstevej]

I do not need to introduce you two to each other.

Perhaps I should just say, "In this corner...

:))

[drstevej]

"These 'free will and foreknowledge' debates tend to be centered around elementary logical fallacies."

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By all means list them and let those on both sides have a crack at them.

[JMJ333]

Correct. And I will add a quote from the Summa:

"the benefits God confers upon men are revealed by the Holy Ghost to holy men according to the saying of the Apostle (1 Cor. 2:12): "Now we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us from God." Therefore if man were predestined by God, since predestination is a benefit from God, his predestination would be made known to each predestined; which is clearly false.

[drstevej]

Have read several of Ross' books. Don't always agree but am always am challenged to think and I apprciate his efforts to related his conclusions to Scripture.

[HiTech RedNeck]

These 'free will and foreknowledge' debates tend to be centered around elementary logical fallacies.

In this I tend to agree. The two sides of the debate tend to talk past each other in a never ending circle. "Unifying theories" are few and far between (which is why Hugh Ross's attempt is so noteworthy).

[JMJ333]

hehe...actually we get along fairly well as of late. However, I saw you flagged the rest of the clan, and so I make myself "flame retardent!" ;)

[drstevej]

"The two sides of the debate tend to talk past each other in a never ending circle..."

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I would concur. Hopefully, on this thread the varying views could talk to each other -- and do so persuasively yet graciously.

[drstevej]

List em or not list em. It's your "choice" or "fate" [Pick One].

[drstevej]

Must be late. Cause this quote blows past me...

[HiTech RedNeck]

"the benefits God confers upon men are revealed by the Holy Ghost to holy men according to the saying of the Apostle (1 Cor. 2:12): "Now we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us from God." Therefore if man were predestined by God, since predestination is a benefit from God, his predestination would be made known to each predestined; which is clearly false.

The same question, I would think, could be made concerning any other gift from God; i.e. why, if this promise is true, are some beneficiaries apparently ignorant of their gifts. The Holy Spirit teaches. Teaching is a process; it takes time. It isn't (usually) "poof" and voila, instant complete illumination.

[HiTech RedNeck]

One would think that man's quest to know the mind of God would be more intense than a paragraph in a book by St. Aquinas.