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Bankrupting A Society
American Probation and Parole Association magazine "Perspective" ^ | Fall 1992 | Carl J. Cieslikowski

Posted on 04/29/2002 6:10:32 PM PDT by gcruse

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To: general_re
What are laws against murder but a reflection of the belief that murder is morally wrong?

Laws against murder serve to protect other people from would-be murderers. The act of murder, essentially without exception, impairs another person's right to live.

Laws against drug possession protect exactly whom from exactly what? It would seem that the essential desired protections could be provided by less restrictive laws. For example, if the goal is to protect people from the hazards that stoned drivers would pose, pass a law against driving while stoned. If the goal is to protect people from having people pushing drugs on the schoolyard, pass a law against open-air sales and sales to minors.

Nearly all of the problems "caused" by drugs are the result of overt acts. As such, laws against such acts may be enforced without the privacy violations necessary to enforce statutes restricting covert acts.

21 posted on 04/29/2002 8:52:44 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat
The act of murder, essentially without exception, impairs another person's right to live.

And it would be...okay to violate someone's rights? Or is it wrong? Maybe even morally wrong? ;)

Like I said, I'm not unsympathetic to the article or its goals, but this notion of attacking laws based on morality is just nonsensical. Even in the example you give, it is implicitly understood that it is morally wrong to violate another's right to live, which is what justifies a law against it.

22 posted on 04/29/2002 9:14:29 PM PDT by general_re
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To: krogers58
I believe we should put Darwin's law into effect, and legalize all drugs. Give 'em all they want......it would put a little chlorine into California's gene pool......

Maybe we should help Darwin along. Everybody that gets sent to prison for a violent crime gets a liberal dose of drugs in their food every day and as much more as they want. Confine them to concrete cells for 23 hours a day and let them wash their own single set of clothes in the shower. That ought to cut down on the violent criminals and the expense of the prison system.

23 posted on 04/29/2002 9:25:41 PM PDT by IncredibleHulk
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To: general_re
. Even in the example you give, it is implicitly understood that it is morally wrong to violate another's right to live, which is what justifies a law against it.

Governments are established by people to protect their (real and perceived) rights. Whether violation of someone's rights is morally right or wrong is irrelevant; what matters is that those in power don't want certain rights violated and are willing to use force to protect them.

24 posted on 04/29/2002 9:32:42 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat
Governments are established by people to protect their (real and perceived) rights. Whether violation of someone's rights is morally right or wrong is irrelevant...

Is it? That's a very interesting distinction you draw parenthetically - what, precisely, is the difference between a "real" right and a "perceived" right?

25 posted on 04/29/2002 9:52:54 PM PDT by general_re
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To: general_re
Is it? That's a very interesting distinction you draw parenthetically - what, precisely, is the difference between a "real" right and a "perceived" right?

The right to own human slaves, for example?

26 posted on 04/29/2002 9:57:17 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat
That may be an example, but denotative definitions of this sort are generally pretty limited, insofar as we cannot possibly enumerate all possible examples of "perceived" rights. Hence, we cannot fully identify the extension of the term "perceived right".

So I want to know how we differentiate a real right from one that is only perceived to be a right. Imagine that we are presented with a claim of a new right, one that has never been encountered before. When looking at this claimed right, how do we know whether it is "real" or not? Surely there must be some standard we can apply...

27 posted on 04/29/2002 10:07:19 PM PDT by general_re
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To: gcruse
Realize legislating morality has been a destructive societal policy and that drug use and abuse are medical problems. * Take the profit out of drugs by ending prohibition

The above two points from the article, basically state the main problem with the WOD.
Profit and telling others what they can and can't do.
28 posted on 04/30/2002 6:48:16 AM PDT by vin-one
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To: lawdude
accept seeing bodies laying in the streets

Yeah, that's it everyone would be addicts. Your statement has no proof,
to back it up. But I have seen comparisons on this forum that totaly blow away everyone of your assumptions.
Intial use might go up, but then level off.
As far as some rich hollywood personality ODing, before it was drugs it was alcohol.
Every town has an Otis the town drunk, by your theory everyone town should have 100's of town drunks.
It just wouldn't happen.
29 posted on 04/30/2002 6:56:39 AM PDT by vin-one
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To: gcruse
SOURCE= American Probation and Parole Association!!!!

These guys are employed by the WOD. They depend on our tax dollars going towards the WOD for the food they eat. And they publish this?

Kudos and a Cheer from this ANTI-WOD Man!!

No new information but it nice to hear this from an inside source.

EBUCK

30 posted on 04/30/2002 11:17:06 AM PDT by EBUCK
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To: lawdude
easy access to gubment-produced-propo-spewage=lawdude

Look at the numbers. 600 thousand die from alchohol and tobbacco each year. 10 thousand die from the most heinous drug available, heroin, every year. Do we have dead nicotine addicts in the streets? Do we have dead alchoholics in the streets? Well, not in my town we don't either.

And just to help you out I'll let you in on a little secret. All those celebs you named....got their drugs regardless of the WOD. That's right!!!! The WOD did nothing to save them from themselves!!! Oh the humanity. How come we didn't try harder to make sure that they were safe? Why, Oh why, didn't we do something to keep them from exercising their free will?

EBUCK

31 posted on 04/30/2002 11:25:36 AM PDT by EBUCK
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To: EBUCK
I thought you'd like that. :)
32 posted on 04/30/2002 11:46:41 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: gcruse
Thanks for thinking of me. It's cool to see the WOD-establishment show a conscious and a sence of their own hypocrisy.

EBUCK

33 posted on 04/30/2002 12:02:43 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: lawdude
seeing bodies laying in the streets.

The only reason we don't see that very much now is DEA and BATF etc police up the bodies they lay in the streets fairly quickly. Then they burn and buldoze the sites to quickly clean up the unsightly results of their work.

34 posted on 04/30/2002 12:07:28 PM PDT by arthurus
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To: EBUCK
"Do we have dead alchoholics in the streets?"

We do in Phoenix. Not a large number but some none the less. And alcohol is not anywhere near as addictive as crack, meth, heroin, etc. I work with drug users daily and can tell you that there is no turning back FOR MOST. I almost never say all or none< g>.

Please understand, I am an alcoholic and getting off the stuff was easier than quitting smoking by a factor of 100:1. I am also a physicist and criminal defense lawyer. I speak from experience on this subject. Doesn't make me right but it does provide a perspective that most do not enjoy!

35 posted on 04/30/2002 6:09:30 PM PDT by lawdude
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To: arthurus
"Then they burn and buldoze the sites to quickly clean up the unsightly results of their work."

Doncha just hate it when that happens?

36 posted on 04/30/2002 6:11:16 PM PDT by lawdude
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To: lawdude
We do in Phoenix. Not a large number but some none the less. And alcohol is not anywhere near as addictive as crack, meth, heroin, etc. I work with drug users daily and can tell you that there is no turning back FOR MOST. I almost never say all or none.

If there is no chance of turning them back why do we put them in prison? If what they are doing to themselves is in-curable without their consent why force them into treatment? You obviously know that getting forcing horeses to drink is nearly impossible so why do we continue to try?

Please understand, I am an alcoholic and getting off the stuff was easier than quitting smoking by a factor of 100:1. I am also a physicist and criminal defense lawyer. I speak from experience on this subject. Doesn't make me right but it does provide a perspective that most do not enjoy!

I don't think you are entirely wrong. I just think (especially with your experience) that you would understand the completely hopeless situation our current system is in. The current system has been built, tested, measured, revamped, measured, restructured, measured ect. and has come up short every time. It's time for a new method because the old imprison/forced treatment scheme does not work, will never work and has never worked.

I understand that you are heavily vested in the current system but you have to understand that the rest of us (as taxpayers) are just as vested if not more so. You have your job to think about but we have our entire way of life to consider. And those of us that understand the price and responsibility of freedom are willing to let the addicts die in the street if it means freedom for us.

EBUCK

37 posted on 05/01/2002 10:39:51 AM PDT by EBUCK
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To: gcruse
Drugs ruin people's lives. We must protect them from ruining their lives. Therefore we must send drug users to prisons.

Somehow I can't understand the logic behind that. But I'm sure some jackbooted jackass who supports the war on drugs will explain it to me.

38 posted on 05/01/2002 12:18:50 PM PDT by Rule of Law
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To: Rule of Law
We must protect them from ruining their lives.

This is social conservatism in a nutshell.

39 posted on 05/01/2002 12:40:28 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: EBUCK
"If there is no chance of turning them back why do we put them in prison?"

Most drug USERS currently in the system are also criminals in other respects. Theft, assault, burglary, and violent crimes. In AZ, since Prop 200, users are given the opportunity to take a treatment program the first couple times. Charges are dismissed and no crime shows on the record. Just how many chances to straighten out does one need.

40 posted on 05/01/2002 9:28:22 PM PDT by lawdude
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