Posted on 04/20/2002 11:13:03 AM PDT by Romulus
He never left. But you know that.
:)
Then may He be realized.
If you think that the creation of Israel is to fulfill bible prophecy then you are indeed a scholar!
To the human way of thinking, Jesus being tortured and then dying on a cross seems like a screwy way to save makind. But that was God's plan for our salvation. I do not believe Pius was ANY KIND of a friend to the Jews. To suggest that the Israeli people would have even WANTED a homeland that was Biblically irrelevant to them is hard for me to understand.
Your note indicates to me that you consider Israel strictly from the p.o.v. of human geopolitics. The p.o.v. of Bible believing Christians is that Israel is part of God's plan of Redemption.
In Revelation He promised us that Israel would be back in their Land, the Land GOD gave them, at the end of the world. Pius wanted to thwart that. In effect, Pius wanted to thwart the prophesies in the book of Revelation. God rejected Pius's schemes. I leave it to your imagination as to what Bible believing Christians think of Pius and his motives.
Methinks you watch too much Jack Van Impe. Your criticism of Pius XII is based on a bogus interpretation of scripture, and equally false history. Perhaps a little more scholarship needs to be applied. But first, change your sources.
Oh really? How so? I base my belief, as do tens of millions of Christians, on the LITERAL interpratation of what was a clear prophesy give by God to us in Revelation. Revelation was written in 95 AD. After Israel and Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed.
It is eye opening to realize that whenever someone in the Bible is READING the Bible, they take what it says LITERALLY. The classic example of this is Daniel chpt 9:
2 During the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, was studying the writings of the prophets. I learned from the word of the LORD, as recorded by Jeremiah the prophet, that Jerusalem must lie desolate for seventy years...
Daniel based his following actions on the premise that God's Word in the Bible meant a LITERAL 70 years. Indeed, God exiled the Jews for precisely 70 years. We see that God is again fulfilling His words in Revelation LITERALLY. There is now an Israel, there is now a Jerusalem, and soon there will be a new Temple. (But there wouldn't have been is Pius had his way.)
You criticize my scholarship...what "scholarship" do YOU bring to the table??? I close with some predictive words from a very wise, learned man:
"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition."
Sir Issac Newton 1642-1727
Newton took the Bible quite literally, and the literal interpretation of the prophesies in Daniel and Revelation were his life's passion.
Are you aware that Newton was an Arian?
(And a bump to this fine thread)
I've asked for you to back that statement up. From your silence I am forced to conclude that you are unable to. Therefore your charge that Pius XII was "thwarting the will of God" is erroneous at best, malicious at its worst. The facts demonstrate that Pius was an able and willing friend to the Jews of Europe during the Nazi occupation and many notable Jews acknowleged that fact during their lifetimes( Golda Meir for one). His opposition to a Jewish state was not contrary to some fraudulent interpretation of Revelations, as you suggest, but rather consistent with his history as a friend to the Jews and Christ's teaching of brotherly love.
First of all, some background. Zechariah 12 gives us some info on the future of Jerusalem.
2 I will make Jerusalem and Judah like an intoxicating drink to all the nearby nations that send their armies to besiege Jerusalem.3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone, a burden for the world.
Zechariah 12 was written around 480 BC. While true that Jerusalem was conquered,, retaken, then conquered again (finally by Rome). it was never "a burden to the world" (like it most certainly IS today). The vast majority of people on earth didn't even know it existed and Jerusalem was burned and destroyed by Rome in 70 AD. continuing with Zechariah...
None of the nations who try to lift it will escape unscathed.4 "On that day, says the LORD, I will cause every horse to panic and every rider to lose his nerve. I will watch over the people of Judah, but I will blind the horses of her enemies.5And the clans of Judah will say to themselves, `The people of Jerusalem have found strength in the LORD Almighty, their God.'6"On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a brazier that sets a woodpile ablaze or like a burning torch among sheaves of grain. They will burn up all the neighboring nations right and left, while the people living in Jerusalem remain secure. 7 The LORD will give victory to the rest of Judah first, before Jerusalem, so that the people of Jerusalem and the royal line of David will not have greater honor than the rest of Judah.8On that day the LORD will defend the people of Jerusalem; the weakest among them will be as mighty as King David! And the royal descendants will be like God, like the angel of the LORD who goes before them!9For my plan is to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Now, what time frame is this talking about? Jerusalem from 480 BC to Christ's day? It's possible to allegorize these words to mean the battles over Jerusalem, though "nations to the right & left" "never "burned up"... but we don't have to speculate, Zechariah gives it away in the coming verses...
10 "Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on all the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son.
Clearly this is Jesus. Zero doubt about it. This is a future Prophesy for Jerusalem AFTER the time of Christ. Back to Zech...
They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.
Has THAT ever happened yet? No. So from this passage we know that there will be a someday be a future city of Jerusalem, (there now is) populated by Jews (there now is) who will ALL grieve for and accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah. (As yet, they DON'T) Now, with that background firmly in our pocket, lets go to Revelation:
In Rev 4 Jesus says to John :
1Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen hereafter.
The following visions are in the future, AFTER John wrote Revelation, in 95 AD> (25 years after Jerusalem was utterly destroyed by Rome)... okay on to Revelation 12. (which transpires AFTER 95 AD)
1 Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant, and she cried out in the pain of labor as she awaited her delivery. 3 Suddenly, I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. 4 His tail dragged down one-third of the stars, which he threw to the earth. He stood before the woman as she was about to give birth to her child, ready to devour the baby as soon as it was born. 5 She gave birth to a boy who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And the child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne.
Okay, again, this is clearly Jesus Christ. So... who is the "woman" in verse 1? It could only be one of three things. It could be Eve, who theoretically, gave birth to everyone, Jesus included. It could be Mary, who gave physical birth to Jesus. Or it could be the Nation of Israel, who gave birth to the Messiah. (Indeed, Jesus is often reffered to as the "Son of David". The key to her identity is clearly the line:
I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. This clearly identifies her as the Nation of Israel.
Doing a computer Bible search, there are zero matches to sun, moon, stars and either Eve or Mary. Neither woman is ever mentioned in connection to the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. But the fledgling nation of Israel clearly is, in Genesis 37. It's a reference to Joseph's dream involving his family...
9 Then Joseph had another dream and told his brothers about it. "Listen to this dream," he said. "The sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed low before me!" 10 This time he told his father (Jacob) as well as his brothers, and his father rebuked him. "What do you mean?" his father asked. "Will your mother, your brothers, and I actually come and bow before you?" 11But while his brothers were jealous of Joseph, his father gave it some thought and wondered what it all meant.
Jacob's family IS the Nation of Israel. The twelve brothers became the twelve tribes of Israel, and indeed, we get the very name "Israel" because that is what God changed Jacob's name to! Gen 32:28 And He said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
The next verse in Revelation 12 tells us another deatil...
6 And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to give her care for 1,260 days
Keeping in mind that this is a future prophesy, and that Israel didn't exist when John wrote these words, we can safely say that 1) this has never yet happened, and 2) FOR this to happen, there needs to be an Israel, living in their actual homeland of Israel which God gave to them forever. (Which we now happily see!)
My reason for bringing up Pius XXII's letter to Roosevelt, is that Pius didn't want Israel to have back their Biblical God-given homeland...
(from the Pius's letter) "It is true that at one time Palestine was inhabited by the Hebrew Race, but there is no axiom in history to substantiate the necessity of' a People returning to a country they left nineteen centuries before,
Or, failing that, Pius wanted Israel to accept refuge in some Biblicaly irrelevant land...
(from the Pius's letter)"If a 'Hebrew Home' is desired, it would not be too difficult to find a more fitting territory, than Palestine
"More fitting territory"???????????? What could be more fitting than the land which God gave to Israel FOREVER? The land which prophesies in Zechariah, and Revealtion (and others) clearly SAID was God's future plan for Israel?
To think that someone who purports himself to be "God's vicar on earth" would oppose something so basic as God keeping His unconditional, everlasting promises to Israel, clearly revealed in Scripture, is something Bible believers cannot allow to go unspoken of and unchallenged.
Now, in conclusion, I know beyond doubt, that Catholic freepers will immediately try to counter and oppose my preaching here. I understand that your loyalty to the Roman Catholic Organization is more important than anything to you. I realize that this little discourse here will probably change no minds.
I have merely done my duty to God's Word here to the best of my ability, as God has given me the strength and wisdom to do so. And I have alerted all readers of this thread to the historical fact that Pope Pius XXIIth opposed the rebirth of Israel in their Biblically relevant, God-given Homeland, with whatever implications anyone may wish to draw from that.
Then why do you waste our time with your erroneous exegesis?
I only see one olive tree in Romans 11. How many do you see?
What does Galatians 3:29 mean? What does Ephesians 3:5-6 mean? Anything?
No doubt. Tensions between the Vatican and Fr. Tiso were very tense and by no means friendly. I'm not up to speed on events in Slovakia, but based on what I've read the "kid gloves" accusation is grossly unfair. Let me get back to you on this.
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