The U.S.S. Liberty for One Last Time was a mistake!

Jewish Virtual Library ^ | 4-15-02

[Poohbah]

Can you document your claim about the improved performance of the Egyptian Army?

Suggested reading: Elusive Victory by Trevor N. Dupuy.

Even if it is true that intel gotten by the Liberty was being passed on to the Egyptians by some route, you have no warrant to say that the Liberty itself was passing it on.

No, but it was acting as the collection station.

I assure you, from many years of experience in Air Force and Navy signals intelligence, that transmission of the intel to the Egyptians by the Liberty itself strikes me as virtually inconceivable, it would depart so far from my experience with such units (which started in 1970, not so long after.)

I quite agree. But the only platform capable of gathering the kind of info the Egyptians needed to evade SEVERAL attacks on June 7th and early on June 8th was the Liberty. Her "take" was arriving very quickly in Cairo.

One can imagine other routes by which the intel could have gotten to the Egyptians -- through the U.S. government, the Brits on Cyprus, Russians decyphering U.S. Navy communications because of the Walkers -- including some possible routes having nothing to do with the Liberty -- the Russians monitoring Israeli communications (they would have had ground units in both Egypt and Syria,) or a spy somewhere in Israel.

Let's look this over. Real-time intel? Had to be gathered from a platform closer to the Sinai than Cairo (for the Russians--they were NOT going to risk their best gear and operatives in the Sinai) or Cyprus (the British). The Liberty was the only platform that fits the description. The Russians breaking US traffic out? In real time? Yeah, right. Remember, this was BEFORE Walker made his pitch to the Russians. Same goes for a spy in Israel--the data was too real-time. And Egypt threw in the towel less than an hour after the attack went down. Maybe they had a better idea as to the intelligence platform than you do.

But what is really out of line is for you to say that the Liberty itself was passing on the intelligence. Take that back unless you can back it up.

OK, you want to be strain at gnats and swallow camels.

Fine, the Liberty wasn't actually transmitting the data to Egypt--but the Liberty's take was arriving in Cairo faster than anything except a US-government authorized pipe would allow.

[Poohbah]

It was a damned shame the fighters called in to help the Liberty were called off from Washington before the assault on the Liberty ended. Damned shame.

The problem was that the birds that were launched were armed with nukes.

[aristeides]

I take it you think it makes no difference for the propriety of a murderous attack on the Liberty that it did not itself transmit the intel. Why, then, did you see fit to accuse it of doing so until I challenged you? I maintain it's because you know it makes a murderous attack on the ship and its sailors sound less bad.

You make an issue of real time. Care to explain how the Egyptians were able to make real-time use of intel that , by your theory, must have transited from the Liberty to at least one stateside recipient before getting back to an Egyptian staff not noted for its efficiency?

[Poohbah]

Back in the good ol' days of the Cold War, once a carrier got into the Eastern Med, she was a SIOP asset and the birds on the catapults were nuclear-loaded. This went on until about 1970 or so.

[Poohbah]

Care to explain how the Egyptians were able to make real-time use of intel that , by your theory, must have transited from the Liberty to at least one stateside recipient before getting back to an Egyptian staff not noted for its efficiency?

You are presuming, of course, that ol' Lyndon Baines "I'll jump as many echelons in the chain of command as I want" Johnson didn't set up SOMETHING to bypass the stateside folks--and, if necessary, the Egyptian staff pukes. (Nasser was not a noted respecter of the chain of command, either, and probably set up that end.)

However, if you can show me a platform that (a) had the sort of intercept capabilities required for the mission, (b) was operating in close to the Sinai Peninsula, and (c) went away at the same time the Liberty was attacked, I will examine your evidence.

[Poohbah]

I take it you think it makes no difference for the propriety of a murderous attack on the Liberty that it did not itself transmit the intel.

Actually, it doesn't, because it involves the same sponsoring agency (the United States Government) in passing the intel on to the Egyptians.

Why, then, did you see fit to accuse it of doing so until I challenged you?

I used imprecise language. Sue me.

If someone was acting as a spotter for artillery fire aimed at you, would you refrain from shooting him merely because he wasn't personally yanking the lanyard?

[aristeides]

I used imprecise language. Sue me.

Typical. You used language meant to inflame people's feelings against the dead sailors, and now you claim it was all a mistake.

I notice you do not answer my real time point.

[Poohbah]

I did--ol' LBJ's habit was to bypass as much of the chain of command as humanly possible.

You mind telling me what platform in the area on 6/8/67 could pull THAT much data in? Unless there was a Russian AGI operating nearby that nobody ever reported, the Liberty holds the solitary distinction of being both present and capable of performing the task.

[aristeides]

I see you did answer the real time point, but with speculation. Your speculation may, for all I know, even be true. But did the Israelis know so at the time? Was mere speculation good enough for them to kill Americans in cold blood?

[aristeides]

ol' LBJ's habit was to bypass as much of the chain of command as humanly possible.

Can you document that?

[aristeides]

How do you affect Egyptian troop dispositions without going through Egyptian staff?

[Poohbah]

OK, let's flip things around some: At some point in the future, the US and Mexico get into a shooting war. You are the theater commander for the Gulf Coast. After initial success in smashing elements of the Mexican Army just south of the Rio Grande, the Mexican Army suddenly turns into Houdini, avoiding several killing blows in rapid succession over the next two days.

Obviously, somebody is somehow passing intelligence in real-time to the Mexican Army. The only source for stuff that good is COMINT.

There is an Israeli intelligence-gathering ship operating close to the formerly Mexican (now US-controlled) coastline. It's the ONLY platform of any nationality that can gather that good COMINT in the area.

The Israelis SAID they were moving it away from the area, but they haven't. The Israelis have also been engaging in very two-faced diplomacy with the US and and Mexico over the past two decades in this scenario. They loudly claim to be a friend, but they also have been big-time sucking up to Mexico and her allies.

OK, theater commander: do you attack the ship?

My answer: hell, yes.

[Poohbah]

Read any decent book about Operation Rolling Thunder. LBJ routinely picked the targets, mission packages, and tactics. Also read any book that takes a look at US policy in Vietnam. On more than one occasion, LBJ got on the horn to a company commander who was in the middle of a firefight.

[Poohbah]

How do you affect Egyptian troop dispositions without going through Egyptian staff?

Broadcast messages that give the locations and intentions of Israeli units is my guess (that's how the US Navy's fleet commanders bypass their battle force commanders all the time).

[bvw]

Imnho, during the very active progress of a war, while a battle is raging, it is only needed that the commander have *reasonable* basis to believe that a flagged neutral is actually spying for the enemy to take that neutral out, flag or no.

Given that the Egyptians seemed to be newly adapting to Israeli plans in real-time was a reasonable indication that the Egyptians were collecting real-time intel and that the Liberty was in perfect and very obvious position and in most likely fact functioning to collect such intel, and even that there was no obvious alternative source of that intel, why then the commander HAD to take the neutral out.

And at that time, WE were the neutral.

Thus it is not even necessary to consider to any but the smallest degree by what actual route the intel got from the Liberty to the Egyptian commanders, to justify -- during the actual heat of battle -- the actions of the Israeli command.

[bribriagain]

"The question is: "Is Israel worth our time and effort?" I'm beginning to think not, and so are many other conservatives. Perhaps if they wouldn't so often bite the hand that continues to feed them, they'd get a bit more sympathy from me at least."

I think "Republican_Strategist" is just concerned about losing the Jewish vote. Not.

[aristeides]

If such messages were broadcast by the Egyptians, surely the Israelis monitored them. Why don't they release the tapes?

[aristeides]

Ever see the movie Das Boot? Because the allies obviously knew where German submarines were sailing, the Germans became convinced French spies in their home baxes like La Rochelle were tipping the allies off. They never even considered the real explanation, that their cypher had been broken. Wouldn't surprise me if the Gestapo roughed up a lot of French civilians in those harbor towns. They were acting on the basis of speculation about the source of knowledge of enemy forces.

You've only given the same sort of speculation here.