Questioning the Morality of Military Attacks on Civilians

The eloquence of Henry David Thoreau (from Civil Disobediance): A common and natural result of an undue respect for the law is, that you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, powder-monkeys, and all, marching in admirable order over hill and dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit the Navy Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black arts--a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity, a man laid out alive and standing, and already, as one may say, buried under arms with funeral accompaniment, though it may be, "Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note, As his corse to the rampart we hurried; Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot O'er the grave where out hero was buried." The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgement or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good citizens. Others--as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers, and office-holders--serve the state chiefly with their heads; and, as the rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God. A very few--as heroes, patriots, martyrs, reformers in the great sense, and men--serve the state with their consciences also, and so necessarily resist it for the most part; and they are commonly treated as enemies by it. A wise man will only be useful as a man, and will not submit to be "clay," and "stop a hole to keep the wind away," but leave that office to his dust at least: "I am too high born to be propertied, To be a second at control, Or useful serving-man and instrument To any sovereign state throughout the world."

And to you I post this quote. It is appropriate for you are one who will not risk, but do criticise.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

Or this - " The only reason we sleep soundly in our beds is because there are hard ruthless men who are ready to visit violence in the night upon those who would do us harm."

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last." - Winston Churchill

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth fighting for is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - author unknown.

Nothing I have said speaks to my tolerance for risk (you know nothing about that...), nor is that what any of this about. The Roosevelt quote is a good one, but not a justification for the entangling alliances proscribed by Washington (the man, not the institution), the failure to appreciate & embrace being directly correlated to the warmongering, imperialism, & "nation-building" which directs so much enmity toward us from the rest of the world. Far too many of those who would 'do us harm' are motivated by instigations from the very 'hard, ruthless men' you champion (you may even be one yourself). These "men" (see Thoreau's description of the Marine, previous post), & their politician-masters do not act on my behalf - they have their own, self-interested, agendas. The state creates murderous adversaries who would otherwise be unknown to us (not to mention taxing the hell out of us to fund the process); this makes for 'sound sleep'? One cannot simultaneously instigate & appease...have another drink, Winston, and recall how your country's actions in WW1 contributed to the German resolve to smash your cities in WW2 (& round & round we go...). Me & thee are the ones to die; most of the politicians & their business partners live on to start more trouble. As for crocodiles, any who attempt to eat me will be rendered into luggage. As for Burke, YES, and for evil to triumph much, much more quickly, all good men have to do is to continually duped by the amoral "leaders" (or, is this a form of 'doing nothing' - as in, intellectual sloth..?). As for the final quote, another strange conflation. Defending against uninstigated attacks is a moral imperative; creating vicious enemies & then expressing moral outrage when bloodshed ensues is farcical, hypocritical. Initiate force & moral authority evaporates & all that remains is Darwinian kill-or-be-killed - and there is nothing honorable, patriotic or civilized about that.

As wel you know nothing about me. You spout stuff about mindless military tools, yet you enjoy the freedoms that many of us gave all of our tomorrows for. If it wasn't for us you wouldn't be allowed to spout the crap and slander the men who serve, who by the way are better men than you. Don't come across with your peace and love crap, because I honestly think you don't have a clue about realities in different parts of the world, nor other countries beliefs. You think that I am some martinet who jumps to the beating of the drums of my masters ... wrong answer Chuck. I serve, and serve honorably for all Americans to have and enjoy freedom. I have no regrets about what I do, but I know that all these other whiney-assed countries who point the finger at us do so out of jealousy. We have what they want, and that is money and a better life style. Who do they come to with their hand out when they are having a tough time? America! We have always been generous to a fault in helping other countries during times of crisis. There is NO other country in the world where one has the freedoms that we do. I have been to many different parts of the world and have seen first hand the standard of living. But I do not believe everything that other nations try to say about Americans, because I have seen them with their hands out too many times.

Do I believe we did what was right in WW2? Yes, we did what was necessary against a regime that would've destroyed us if they could've. Are we doing what is right now? Yep, and if a few civilians get toasted in the process ... oh f*cking well, perhaps I'll feel bad for them later. Its not like they gave the WTC that much warning to evacuate civilians. If it is a people who wish to eradicate our way of life should I care about some possible innocents getting whacked? I'll guarantee you this ... I won't lose any sleep over them.

The men who serve are my brothers, and it is best summed up in the words of Shakespeare -

If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England:
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more, methinks, would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Honor, loyalty, courage, sacrifice, the fiercest love for comrades you will ever know occur on all battlefields - whether the war is just or unjust. The enemy you face in battle feels the same for his comrades as you do for yours But the battlefields & the warriors who are spent on them are at the most elemental level of a multileveled game - it used to be called geopolitics - and the reasons that they are given in order to rationalize all the bloodshed & sacrifice (and to the civilians back home, as well) are NEVER the true reasons for the war (truth is the first casualty, remember?). As long as you persist in inhabiting only that elemental level, you will never be amenable to the larger picture (i.e., the truth). You also, necessarily, sacrifice some portion of your humanity (as when you indicate nothing but disdain for noncombatants who are murdered by this or that group of uniforms...'they do it, so we can do it, too {setting aside the fact that whichever government initiated force is culpable for all the fallout}, & round & round we go ). The military is a tool, whether you care to admit it or not; it is not self-directed; it adheres to chain-of-command (and the farther down that 'chain' you go, the closer to inanimate, tool-like mindlessness you get) - which is the glue that holds it all together. If you've got 20 years in, as I think you mentioned, then you did not accomplish that by bucking chain of command (when the superior officer says jump, you do, whether he is a martinet or not, right?). As for all the self-congratulatory blather about military sacrifice for 'freedom' and all the Americans back home, etc., save it. Whatever it is you have done, you do not represent me or speak for me (your actual motivations are your own and they have nothing whatsoever to do with me...). Furthermore, since only the founding revolution & the Southern cause in the War of Northern Aggression are the ONLY wars that had ANYTHING to do with a struggle for freedom in this country, whatever battles you have been in have beeen for other reasons. Oh, and the 'they want what we have' chestnut is a laugh, too...these Muslim terrorists don't want our stuff anymore than the Irish terrorists wanted England's stuff: what they do want is for the interlopers to go home & mind their own business. The Swiss have a higher standard of living (more stuff) - the radical muslims must be even MORE jealous of them...think we'll see airplanes flying into their skyscrapers any time soon? See how well old George's advice - peace & trade with all, entangling alliances with none - works? Chess is a boardgame representing war; every piece in Chess is a tool to be expended as necessary to conquer the 'enemy'; every piece, that is, except the Queen. Not you, nor any of the regular civilian population is the 'Queen'. Got it?

So now we get into the Southern War for Independence. I am a descendant of Southern folk anyway, and don't try to lecture me on the righteousness or wrongness of war. While I will concurr that we shouldn't be involved in all the political entanglements all over the world, it seems that 1941 took away those natural boundaries we used to have, and airpower launched from carriers brought violence home to America's shores. Learn from your history boner. We (the military) have to be out in the world to ensure that the Americans have fair access to the markets of the world so the fatcat merchants can make money both here and abroad. And you are more than wrong about foreigners in the Middle East. I never saw a one of them turn down any of our money. They (Muslim fanatics) just want their own little worlds where they can have their closed repressive societies. But according to you, we "tools" in the military are the bringer of all woes. We follow the orders of our superiors, which we are compelled to do by regulation, but that doesn't mean we can't think for ourselves. War is the last effective tool of politics, when all else fails.

Think what you want, but if it weren't for us in the military, you wouldn't have the lifestyle you live today. You would be living in some closed repressive society and bowing to some dictator or monarch. I know that our government is not what was envisioned by the Founders, but it is still the best form of government in the world.

Well, at least we have one thing in common: I grew up in Dixie, around Charleston, SC for the most part. And I know the actual history of that particular struggle (which, like all of the others, isn't what we were taught in school). If by 'natural boundaries' you mean the Atlantic & Pacific oceans, again, I have to ask, what natural boundaries do the Swiss have? Its not MP5-armed citizen militias & narrow mountain passes that keeps them out of all these messes, its there avowed neutrality (a la George Washington, again...). I do learn from history, and the lessons are quite clear and available to anyone who is interested, but the stufff taught in school, the stuff you reference, is not history, its propaganda. Your knowledge of economics & markets is also woefully inadequate, though the fatcats you mentioned would surely appreciate your sentiment, as war profiteers always make abnormally large profits. Of course, Muslims - and every other group you can think of, including Americans of all stripes & persuasions - accept the government dole, whats so surprising about that? Why aren't you railing against the dole itself? If that $ is extorted via a thinly veiled coercion, as it is, why do you care more about who it goes to than the fact that it was stolen to begin with? It is also ironic that the Muslim dole that bothers you so much is given over by the people you work for, the ones that generate your marching orders. As for what the Muslims want their world to be like, what business is that of the yours, mine, anybody's? You act like America has property rights over there. Double standards are hypocrisy, why would you support that? Are we on a mission from God here, Manifest Destiny writ global, or what? What exactly is the distinction that you can think for yourself, but will follow orders (no matter what you may think of them) - isn't it that somebody else is doing the thinking for you? Besides, how many times have you told yourself that 'yours is not to question why'(I suppose that contributes to relieving any pangs of consciousness that might arise, thinking that somebody ELSE has moral responsibilty for your actions, because...hey, they make the decisions & you are just the tool deployed to effect those decisions, right?). And no, tools aren't the bringers of all woes...the tool wielders are (guns don't kill people, people do, as they say...)- the people you have chosen to work for. Finally, America was not some closed repressive society before you and the imperial forces came along & saved the day. In fact, I would much prefer it to be as it was: citizen militias, no standing armies for the politicians to use in the pursuit of their delusions, a Federal republic as envisioned by the founders (and fought to preserve by the Southerners). The valid comparison is not between the U.S. and the rest of the world now; the valid comparison is between the U.S. then & the U.S. now (and that, truly, is no comparison at all).

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