Posted on 04/09/2002 1:27:00 PM PDT by TBP
And you don't even address the Sikhs, Muslims, and other minorities that have been murdered by the governmetn also.
Which "well known" human rights group ?
Instead, perchance this reference is from the Council of Khalistan (COK), more specifically Dr. Gurmeet Singh Aulakh's congratulatory message to the National Socialist Council of Nagaland(Isaac-Muviah Faction) for the publication of their book "50 years of Resistance" in 1998 which provides a figure of 200,000 Naga's killed.
I consider the COK being far from knowlegebale on Naga issues given that Punjab and Nagaland are not geographically contiguous and for that matter are about as far apart as one can be in India (Punjab is on the western end of India and Nagaland on the eastern end).
Interestingly, the same COK in 1993 stated that 100,000 Nagas had been killed.
Thus according to the COK between 1993 and 1998, 100,000 additional Nagas were claimed to killed.
I once again reiterate that the census data I have provided in my post # 40 does not appear to support the figures quoted by you.
India is a democracy period. That however does not bestow the right to armed seperatists to indulge in terrorism without the fear of supression.If in the process some of these terrorists die, so be it. If you choose to call that murder, Indian democracy gives you that prerogative. In this we are no different from other democracies faced with these issues eg: USA (civil war ), UK (N.Ireland), Phillippines ( Mindanao ),Spain ( Basque region )and yes Sri Lanka too (Jaffna).
The below weblinks will direct you to the 200,000 and 100,000 numbers respectively :
However, there are many who say otherwise.
Listen to Narinder Singh, a spokesman for the Golden Temple:
"The Indian government, all the time they boast that they're democratic, they're secular, but they have nothing to do with a democracy, they have nothing to do with a secularism. They try to crush Sikhs just to please the majority." Narinder Singh, a spokesman for the Golden Temple, Amritsar, Punjab, interviewed on National Public Radio, July 11, 1997.
Or this:
"When it comes to Kashmir and Punjab and Jammu, the Indian Government might as well not be a democracy. For people in those areas, India might as well be Nazi Germany." -- U.S. Representative Dana Rohrabacher (R-Cal.), August 2, 1999.
Or this:
"The mere fact that [Sikhs] have the right to choose their oppressors does not mean they live in a democracy." Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-NY) (How's htat for bipartisanship?)
General Narinder Singh (a different guy from theone quoted before), a retired Indina general, says "Punjab is a police state." Then there is Balram Jakhar, the former Speaker of the Indian Parliament: "If we have to kill a million Sikhs to keep India's territorial integrity, so be it." So far, they're only 25 percent of the way there.
Sounds really democratic to me.
The question is how many? People who share your views are in a minority. Thats is a fact you will have to live with.
but the facts are the facts.
And multicultural states don't survive, as Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union (India's old ally) and Austria-Hungary should have taught us by now.
India is not a constitutional republic. There are 17 freedom movements within India's borders, in part because Christians, Sikhs, Bodos, Assamese, Manipuris, and other minorities do not enjoy full Constitutional protection. (In words, yes. In actions, no.)
Look at Gujarat. The fact is that while the carnage was going on, the police stood aside and did nothing to stop it. The same thing happened in 1984 to the Sikhs in Delhi. Police officials kill minorities and all that ever happens to them is that they get transferred. Not one of your India sycophhants has been able to show one case where teh police were punished. The government of Punjab ordered a report on the murder of Akal Takht Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke, and when it implicated the police, specifically SSP Swaran Singh Ghotna, they refused to release it.
In 1994, our own State Department (in a pro-India Administration) reported that the Indian government paid out over 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs. One officer got a bounty for killing a three-year-old boy, whom he claimed was a terrorist. Last year, the government's troops were caught red-handed trying to set fire to some Sikh homes and a Gurdwara in Kashmir. The Hinu supremacist militants who burned missionary Graham Staines and his two young sons to death have not been punished. Neither have the people responsible for murdering priests, raping nuns, burning churches, and other acts of violence against Christians. Instead, the RSS, which is the parent organization of the ruling BJP, published a booklet on how to implicate Christians and other minorities in false criminal cases. In 1997, a Christian religious festival was broken up by police gunfire. In November 1994, the Indina newspaper Hitavada reported that the Indian government paid the late governor of Punjab, Surendra Nath, $1.5 billion to foment terrorist activity in Punjab and Kashmir. There are so many of these attacks and atrocities that one begins to lose track of them.
The head of teh RSS just recently said that all Indians must be Hindus. This reflects a statement by a cabinet member that everyone who lives in India must be Hinu or be subservient to Hinduism. And Prime Minister Vajpayee told an audience in New York in 2000, "I will always be a Swayamsewak."
Second, Pakistan is a hotbed of violent Islamic terrorists who hate America, Israel, and India, and Musharraf, the lone ranger, is trying to turn his entire country around, but that's not easy.
No, and Musharraf is doing an excellent job. There is much militant Islamism in Pakistan, true, and it's every bit as bad as the militant Hindutva supremacism that grips India. As you said, Musharraf is trying to turn it around. India did not help the situation by taking advantage of the situation to mass troops on the Kashmir border, forcing Musharraf to divert some of the troops he had been using to track down the Islamist terrorists.
Further, according to the January 2 Washington Times, India sponsors and supports cross-border terrorism in the Pakistani province of Sindh. Will you condemn this? I don't think so. Further, journalist Tavleen Singh, writing in India's leading newsmagazine, India Today, reported that India created the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), which teh U.S. government has labelled a "terrorist organization." India has not been our friend. It was a Soviet ally. It votes against us at the UN more often than any country except Cuba. According to the May 18, 1999 issue of The Indian Express, Defense Minister George Fernandes met with the Ambassadors from Red China, Communist Cuba, Russia, (Milosevic's) "Yugolsavia" (i.e. Serbia), Libya, and Iraq to discuss setting up a security arrangement "to stop the U.S."
Third, Communist China actively encourages and financially supports any anti-American force or ideology it can lay its grubby hands on, because one of its main interests is the destruction of capitalism, i.e. America, India, Israel, and Europe.
True. And as the Indian Express article shows, India is doing nothing to stop them. In fact, it seems that whenever secular, democratic, constitutional India has to choose between supporting America or supporting Red China, it supports the Chinese position.
Try and digest those basic and elemental truisms, and then filter your monotonous gossip and lies to finally arrive at the truth.
I would make the same suggestion to you.
LOL. How nice of you, but totally dishonest, as usual. India has no terrorists' operating in Pakistan blowing up people, parliaments, and killing innocents. Now check again to see which way your head is screwed on, or even if it is.
Everything you post has been debunked before. Why did you flag me to this leftist "progressive" professor's little ramblings? SOURCE, TBP, is everything to most thinking people, but that's something you'll never be accused of. Thinking people would post utter bullshit from the FPIF with a "barf alert", or not post it at all. (I must admit it's somewhat intriguing though, to see you've dropped the crap from COK and picked up with the progressive socialists.)
I will post this again, since you don't seem to have gotten it before.
On January 2, in the Washington Times (a far left newspaper, right, keri?) it was reported that India is sponsoring cross-border terrorism in Sindh. Sindh is a province of Pakistan. But I should believe that "India has no terrorists' operating in Pakistan" because you say so rather than believe the Washington Times. Obviously.
Would it be OK if we tore down the mosques and replaced them with something more useful...say, pork rib BBQ stands...instead?
Nothing could be more morally blind or politically irresponsible.
Those who throw their unqualified support behind Indian nationalism are no differemt from the fellow travelers and useful idiots of the 1930's and 40's who in their foolishness and despair embraced another satanic ideology: Communism.
It is amazing to me to see how many Christians on this site are licking their chops at the prospect of Muslims--who share our heritage in Abraham--being wiped out by Hindu fundamentalists.
The Hindu newspaper reported that at lesat 5,000 (not the 900 officially reported) died in the violence in Gujarat. The newspapers also reported that the government planned this violence in advance, and at least one police officer was quoted as saying that he was ordered to stand aside and not to intervene. Ironically, this is remarkably similar to what happened in the November 1984 massacre of Sikhs in Delhi. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
An Indian cabinet minister was quoted last year as saying that everyone who lives in India must either be Hindu or be subservient to Hindus. Hindu militants affiliated with the RSS, the parent organization of the ruling BJP, have murdered priests, raped nuns, burned churches, destroyed Christian churcnes and prayer halls. They burned missionary Graham Staines and his two young sons to death while they slept in their jeep, all teh while surrounding the jeep and chanting "Victory to Hannuman," a Hindu god.
They have massacred Sikhs, Christians, Muslims, lower-caste people, and others in massive numbers.
And they do all this with impunty. The government of Punjab, for example, will not even release its own report on the murder of former Akal Takht Jathedar (the spiritual head of the Sikh religion) Gurdev Singh Kaunke -- a report it commissioned itself -- because it apprently implicates a high-ranking police official, SSP Swaran Singh Ghotna.
Yet India proclaims itself democratic and secular, so many Aamericans, including conservative Americans support it.
Nothing could be more morally blind or politically irresponsible.
True. Especially given that Pakistan is a longtime ally and India has a long record of supporting and consorting with our enemies. And according to Tony Blankley in the Washington Times, India supports cross-border terrorism against Paksitan in the province of Sindh.
Those who throw their unqualified support behind Indian nationalism are no differemt from the fellow travelers and useful idiots of the 1930's and 40's who in their foolishness and despair embraced another satanic ideology: Communism. Or the Bund, the American supporters of Hitler. In fact, the RSS, the parent organization of the ruling BJP, was founded in 1925 in admiration and support of the Fascists. Meanwhile, the chief opposition, the "secular" Congress Party, is in coalition with the Communist Party.
Meanwhile, India continues to seek hegemony in South Asia. Cabinet officials have recently called for an "Akand Bharat"-- a Greater India, stretching from Burma to Afghanistan, and absorbing Pakistan (among other countries.) It was India that first conducted nuclear tests, then crowed that Pakistan couldn't compete. It is India that continues to deny self-determination in the form of a free and fair vote to the people of Kashmir, who were promised a plebiscite in 1948, and to the other peoples seeking their freedom, such as the predominantly Christian Nagaland, the Sikh homeland of Punjab, Khalistan, and many others. In all there are 17 freedom movements within the borders of "democratic, secular" India.
Just as the multinational states of Austir-Hungary, the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia could not hold together, neither can India.
No problem. I just happened to come across your thread a few days ago...I didn't realize until later how much time has passed since you first posted it.
I want to be clear: my criticism of India is not intended as a statement of "support" for Pakistan, which must accept its share of blame for the current situation. For some reason, many people seem to think that they must choose a side in these fights.
Animosity and resentment toward Muslims after September 11(understandable, but extremely misguided, imo) is causing American conservatives to lose their good judgment. Do they really believe that if we use any means necessary to smash the Muslims (who share our heritage in father Abraham and with whom we have much in common), the world we be rid of danger? Do they really think that radical Hinduism--to say nothing of Chinese Leninism--is any less deadly than militant Islam? Would a world without Muslims, dominated by Corporate Materialists, Marxist-Leninists, and Hindu fundamentalists--be somehow more accomodating to Christians? The suggestion is ludicrous.
Meanwhile, India continues to seek hegemony in South Asia.
These days, who doesn't? The real contest, imo, is between the US and China, with Russia likely playing the key swing role in Central. India is ambitious, to be sure, but I think they're pretty much out of the running for now.
Just as the multinational states of Austria-Hungary, the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia could not hold together, neither can India.
Interesting comparison. I don't know enough about India to comment. I will say that once the scourge of atomization and nationalism is unleashed, it is almost impossible to contain or reverse. The stakes for India in Kashmir are big, indeed.
Older but still relevant bump.
A CIA study a couple of years ago predicted that by 2015, India will break up into several countries.
You do realize that the incident you're talking about was set up by the Indian regime, don't you?
A response to a post I made 9 years ago? That’s rare!
Nah. I don’t think so. India’s been on a roll lately.
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