Fighting Facts With Slander

LR ^ | Thomas J. DiLorenzo

[Ditto]

If so, then the state giving up the territory to form a new state would have to agree thru its legislature, as well as the Congress, per Article 4, Section 3.

At the time the Virginia legislature voted to secede, those members from the western counties where the vast majority of the popular vote was against secession formed a rump legislature in Charleston. They elected a Governor and there representatives were recognized by congress and given seats. The people of "West Virginia" then voted to petition congress for admission as a new state and congress approved the resolution as long as it included emancipapion of slaves, which were very few in the Western counties. It was perfectly Constitutional and Lincoln had little to do with it. Congress did most of it on its own.

[Non-Sequitur]

The Constitution gives Congress the power to allow a state to split into two states with the consent of the state legislature. In the case of Virginia, the western counties had always had problems with the eastern part of the state. For 40 years prior to the war the western section of Virginia had long thought that they were on the shore end of state spending to the benefit of the slaveholding eastern section. Once the war broke out, a convention was held in Wheeling which formed a breakaway Virginia legislature which they proclaimed to be loyal to the Union. Congress recognized this legislature as the legitimate Virginia legislature. They then voted to partition the state and once Congress approved they reformed themselves as the West Virginia legislature. That is the short version of what happened. Here is a <a href="http://www.wvculture.org/history/statehoo.html'> website </a> which goes into more detail. The long and the short of it is that the people of western Virginia took advantage of the circumstances to achieve something that they had wanted for decades. You may disagree with them but there was nothing illegal or unconstitutional about their actions, or the actions of Congress or the President. Western Virginia was not the only section which felt that way, either. Eastern Tennessee would have tried a similar action but, unlike western Virginia, the Union was not in a position to assist them. Governor Isham Harris and his goons held sway to eastern Tennessee through bloodshed, violence, and arbitrary jailings.

[Non-Sequitur]

Pure economics and the industrial revolution destroyed slavery.

How do you figure?

[Non-Sequitur]

Let me try that again. The West Virginia link is here

[Ditto]

Pure economics and the industrial revolution destroyed slavery.

The economics of slavery were quite healthy in 1860. The wealthiest people in the country in 1860 were Southern plantation owners. Cotton was King and it was far more profitable and far less risky than steel, coal or railroads --- especially when you had slave labor. The industrial revolution had hardly touched the south and did not for another 40 years after the war was over and the slaves were free.

[VinnyTex]

I repeat that DiLorenzo is an intellectually shabby propagandist.

The only shabby stuff I see around here is that little chicken siht organization you run.

[Rowdee]

Reading the Constitution tells me the US did in fact disobey the Constitution [so whats new]....using circumstances to suit their own purposes [again, what's new].

Whether western VA broke away or not, the Constitution requires the consent of the legislature of the state involved, i.e., Virginia.

I don't see how they, the Congress, can/could just pick and chose what they deem is appropriate Constitutional matters....but then, if I did, the SOBS doing the hack job with our Cosntitution would never be in office.

Regards

[VinnyTex]

I suggest you bone up on the Kansas Nebraska act

Kansas-Nebraska act, which was signed into law in 1854. Kansas-Nebraska proclaimed "Popular Sovereignty" in the territories, allowing the people of each new territory to decide whether or not slavery would be admitted when they achieved statehood, rather than restricting it as the Missouri Compromise had.

[VinnyTex]

state spending to the benefit of the slaveholding eastern section.

You're not suggesting that the western part of Virginia wasn't slaveholding are you??? LOL

[Non-Sequitur]

Read the link I posted in reply 44. Congress DID have the approval of the Virginia legislature recognized as loyal to the Federal Government.

[Non-Sequitur]

There were, in fact, very few slaveholders in western Virginia.

[VinnyTex]

The industrial revolution had hardly touched the south and did not for another 40 years after the war was over and the slaves were free.

Well duhhhh... After the war the congress again passed huge tariffs which only raped the souths economy. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out.

[VinnyTex]

That's simply not true. Were there as many in the easter half?? Nope... Agriculture... but the western half of the state had plenty of slaveholders.

[one2many]

Why don't we shift gears on this thread. DiLorenzo's core contention is that Lincoln trashed the Constitution. I believe we are all in agreement on that. So why don't you Lincoln apologists take the below, point by point, and provide what you consider constitutional justification for each action:

Lincoln illegally suspended the writ of habeas corpus;

launched a military invasion without consent of Congress;

blockaded Southern ports without declaring war;

imprisoned without warrant or trial some 13,000 Northern citizens who opposed his policies;

arrested dozens of newspaper editors and owners and, in some cases, had federal soldiers destroy their printing presses;

censored all telegraph communication; nationalized the railroads;

created three new states (Kansas, Nevada, and West Virginia) without the formal consent of the citizens of those states, an act that Lincoln?s own attorney general thought was unconstitutional;

ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections;

deported a member of Congress from Ohio after he criticized Lincoln?s unconstitutional behavior;

confiscated private property;

confiscated firearms in violation of the Second Amendment;

Thanks in advance.

[Poohbah]

In the case of West Virginia, was that not carved out of the State of Virginia or one of the other states? If so, then the state giving up the territory to form a new state would have to agree thru its legislature, as well as the Congress, per Article 4, Section 3.

Actually, given that the legislature of the State of Virginia was party to rebellion against the federal government, they kinda lost their right to complain about that issue.

[Rowdee]

Save me the trouble of reading and just tell me....it was the newly formed legislature that voted, right? :) As I said, how convenient.....government has a way of doing that sort of thing.....of course, when it suits their purposes...i.e. a patriot in recent days and years has been considered scum of the earth...right wing radicals,,,,terrorists...yada yada yada....and yet, the SOBS in order to control and cut down on liberties and freedoms, appropriate the word PATRIOT to wrap themselves in the flag of the nation!!

Thanks....but no thanks.

[humbletheFiend]

"Lincoln was an American Pol Pot, except worse." - Paul Craig Roberts

Thanks for the ping, but I really don't know if I have the stomach for all this.

Ping me again when they get around to what Lincoln did to Paula Jones' great great grandmother.

[Rowdee]

Ah....another "i want it both ways".....yeah, sure.....

[Poohbah]

Save me the trouble of reading and just tell me....it was the newly formed legislature that voted, right? :) As I said, how convenient.....government has a way of doing that sort of thing.....of course, when it suits their purposes...i.e. a patriot in recent days and years has been considered scum of the earth...right wing radicals,,,,terrorists...yada yada yada....and yet, the SOBS in order to control and cut down on liberties and freedoms, appropriate the word PATRIOT to wrap themselves in the flag of the nation!!

Actually, the folks who threw the word "patriot" around like a football and tried to say "blowing up a Federal building is patriotic!" are responsible for the term coming into disrepute.

In short, the press refused to disagree with the speakers...

[Aurelius]

"Once the war broke out, a convention was held in Wheeling which formed a breakaway Virginia legislature which they proclaimed to be loyal to the Union. Congress recognized this legislature as the legitimate Virginia legislature."

In other words, some guys got together and said "Let's make our own state, and while we're at it, we'll make ourselves the legislature." The Union Congress was happy to go along with that.