Mountain Division: Why the U.S. can't match the British at high altitudes.

The American Prospect ^ | Mar 21, 2002 | Jason Vest

[Cogadh na Sith]

Our guys are giving it their all. No matter what kind of questions any of us may have of this engagement, our men (and women) are going 110%

True, but A's for effort don't win battles.

However, some armies in the world take unit training for extreme environments a lot more seriously. Consequently their '110%' goes farther than ours.

Now don't tell me I'm 'anti-military' or something, I've been in light infantry units on active duty and I'm still in the Guard.

If we spent as much time actually training as we do on 'PowerPoint' briefings and paperwork, we'd be as good in challenging environments as the Brits.

[Ultrconservative]

Yep,

My Dad was in the 10th in the 50's.

They trained high in the rockies near Leadville CO....about 10,000 feet.

The unit was originaly started to battle Nazi Alpine troops high in the Alps...

They distinguished themselve by fighting all the way up the center of Italy in WWII.

Here is a web site about the 10th.

[My Identity]

I concur with your analysis.

Rather than try to impugn my motives, I think we would all benefit from your analysis of where the article is off the mark.

[My Identity]

May I sir?

Absolutely. I think most flatlanders have no concept of how the body reacts to oxygen deprivation, let alone altitude sickness.

[Perspicac]

The 10th Mountain Div. used to train at Camp Hale, Colorado near Leadville in WWII

[fnord]

sure, there are small British special forces that are better trained in particular areas than US Army divisions as a whole ... but posting this anti-American tripe belies any 'noble' intent.

[BlackJack]

Exactly.........send in the gurkhas! I read some incredible stories about these guys. In Korea they used to sneak up on the N Koreans at night.....slit the throat of every fourth man.....just for terror effect. Leave the rest to tell the tale.

[r9etb]

We need to move the 10th to the Rockies.

Make that back to the Rockies. The 10th division hut system is still here from their WWII days.

Regardless of the accuracy of this particular article, Anaconda definitely did highlight the need for an actual mountain division. Nothing better than practicing at altitude, in the cold.

[JRandomFreeper]

few enemy bodies despite "hundreds killed",

I wasn't commenting on your motives, I was agreeing that the above statement is much like a meadow muffin. Bodies are not normally recovered after a direct hit by a 2000 lb bomb. Neither are they recovered from a cave that has been collapsed.

/john

[cascademountaineer]

There was alot that contributed to this. The Pashtun/Tajik lines broke early leaving no rear gaurd. That was unacounted for. That should not, nor need not be a criticism, of any field exercise. And anyone who has spent enough time in the field should know that.

[My Identity]

posting this anti-American tripe belies any 'noble' intent.

Please let us know how this "tripe" is off-the mark. I'm sure there are many lurkers that would benefit from your detailed analysis.

[Seydlitz]

It's not "anti-Amerocan tripe". It may be from a liberal magazine, but inadequate training for the US Army has been a problem since the Spanish-American War (Stephen Ambrose's propaganda notwithstanding). If we don't openly acknowledge and rectify short-comings in training, doctrine or equipment, we needlessly send American soldiers to an early grave.

[MarkWar]

>I have mentioned on these boards before that the military had made no use of the troops that train at the Mountain Warfare School here. I thought that once we went into Afghanistan that these folks would be amongst the first called up. ...

(tin foil alert) One reason this war may be going the way it is, is because it is really not a war on terrorism...

For instance, if the US Establishment were dealing with an internal civil war, being played out by proxies abroad, and business struggles (along with symbolic strikes) domestically. Such a struggle might be between, say, the US globalist One World types battling against patriots loyal, first, to the Constitution...

In this view, various power blocs within the US Establishment would maintain control of, or the allegiance of, various elements within the already highly insular and compartmentalized US military.

The Establishment would then have to do a number of things carefully. Seemingly "appropriate" units may be excluded from one theater or another because the units could be controlled by the opposing power bloc. "International" forces may play unexpected roles -- NATO AWACS over the US, or British forces doing a little bit of everything, or French forces picking and choosing what they want to do...

It's difficult to imagine exactly what a civil war would look like in a Western country in the modern world. But since everyone would still need the citizenry to keep calm and keep working to pay for the struggle, it would be in everyone's interest to maintain a facade like the "war on terror." It seems a civil war would look a lot like what we're seeing these days...

Mark W.

[Cogadh na Sith]

There was alot that contributed to this. The Pashtun/Tajik lines broke early leaving no rear gaurd. That was unacounted for. That should not, nor need not be a criticism, of any field exercise. And anyone who has spent enough time in the field should know that.

I'm not criticizing this operation in particular. I'm just saying that our army doesn't take mountain warfare as seriously as other armies.

If you'd like me to criticize this operation, I will: The Pashtun/Tajik forces broke early to save their asses when faced with 4 times the amount of enemies that the usual faulty Army Military Intelligence predicted. Other armies take MI a lot more seriously than we do as well....

[g'nad]

I served in the 2d Marine Regiment. Trained for mountain warfare at Pickel Meadows,(Bridgeport, CA) at the Mountain Warfare Training Center (MWTC)...just surviving and moving at 12,000 ft (summer or winter) will kick your @ss, even if your in great shape. Experience means everything in that environment...not to mention a squared away logistics team...

The troops in country now I'm sure are putting forth their best efforts, and learning hard lessons. Maybe they'll truly earn the designation "Mountain" before this is done...

Go get'em ya doggies!!

[My Identity]

I wasn't commenting on your motives...

Of course not, you were just agreeing with some who was...nice semantics.

Nevertheless, if there are reportedly over 800 enemy killed, one would think that there would be more than a couple dozen bodies found. All I have seen are reports commenting on the lack of bodies. And while your suggested explanations might hold up in some cases, it seems unlikely that they explain 95% of all deaths. Surely our guys on the ground and in the Apaches did more than kill a handful of them.

[rangermedicswife]

The Amry brass, however, does not want the Corp to get anymore press, or so it would seem.

You mean the press that kept beating the drum about the Marines "going in first" to "secure" Camp Rhino? The same Camp Rhino that a couple hundred Army Rangers dropped into for a look-see ... a full month before the Marines hit shore? THAT press?

Don't get me wrong. I love those Marines. (My husband would have been one if they would have let him jump out of a perfectly good airplane every once in a while.) But it was kinda rough sitting back here listening for weeks about the Ooorahs going in first, when it was really the Hooahs all along. And let's not even get into the whole "botched mission" crap that the press put out.

Rangers Lead The Way!

[shaggy eel]

BUMP

[Eagle Eye]

The 4th is (was?) at Ft. Carson, Co.

[cascademountaineer]

BUMP