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Reuniting Father's With Their Families
Strike the Root ^ | 3/18/02 | Stuart A. Miller and Rich Zubaty

Posted on 03/18/2002 6:34:14 AM PST by AUgrad

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To: wraith1
"That's absolutey right. My father has worked with an endless stream of single mothers as a counselor, and virtually all of them with sons are brought to their knees trying to turn a litle boy into a well-adjusted man."

That's OK. The public schools are working on this problem. Many of them have banned boyish behavior, boyish energy, and traditional boy games. They've gone as far as to ban recess and eliminate the on-premises playgrounds fer cryin' out loud. For the intractible boys who rebel and refuse to act like girls, there's Ritalin.

81 posted on 04/04/2002 6:30:51 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: The Giant Apricots
I do not agree there should be a rebutable presumption for joint custody. My point is there is, and always has been a rebutable presumption for paternal custody. That's not to say the father, recognizing the need for a child to spend time with mom, would not allow such visitation. The point is, it's up to him, not the court. Yes, animosity may discourage this, but fault for the divorce plays a big part in custody, whether it any longer plays a part in the dissolution. Fault for the father would give reason for depriving a father of his right for abuse, neglect, or abandonment. In this case the court could allow mom to take custody, the best interest criteria being correctly applied. Maybe neither are fit.

Can a father deny visitation for mom, after showing reason for the divorce? If there was sufficient grounds, yes. Does no fault divorce take this into account? No. Requiring grounds for divorce protect the children from indiscriminate denial of parental care. Where there is grounds for a divorce, there may be grounds for such denial. No-fault laws deal only with the marriage. The resultant implications for custody were not considered, I imagine because legislatures were confused about the application of the "best interest" standard in awarding custody. Had the argument been made that some, or many fathers may not allow visitation where no cause had been established, the idea would have died.

You also mentioned a lack of legal authority on this issue. If the common law right to paternal custody was abolished, I am unaware of the change. Case law, on the other hand has affirmed this right over and over. The case law clearly describes extrordinary circumstances justifying denial of this right. Parental rights are well established. A father's right over that of a mother is also affirmed. It's the court's improper use of the best interest doctrine that has muddied the legal waters. It can, however, be traced to application of laws dealing with guardianship and placement of wards(not guardianship by nature).

82 posted on 04/04/2002 8:28:24 AM PST by right2parent
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To: right2parent
Very interesting.
83 posted on 04/04/2002 8:30:56 AM PST by The Giant Apricots
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To: CobaltBlue
Most men are satisfied with visitation, at most.

You are clearly the most clueless person on the surface of the earth.

84 posted on 06/10/2002 4:36:28 PM PDT by J.R.R. Tolkien
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To: wraith1
Some men aren't so good at raising well-adjusted sons, either, probably because they aren't well-adjusted, themselves. It's hard to teach what you don't know.

Being a good father, or a good mother, isn't something you're born knowing. You have to learn it before you can pass it on.
85 posted on 06/29/2002 11:07:14 AM PDT by CobaltBlue
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To: J.R.R. Tolkien
I don't know what your own experience is in divorce. I've been married 22 years, so I am not talking about my own family.

I am talking about the hundreds of divorces I've handled over the past 15 years.

Ask any divorce lawyer how many men ask for custody, and how many just want visitation. I can count on the fingers of two hands how many men wanted custody.
86 posted on 06/29/2002 11:13:09 AM PDT by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue; Paul Atreides; right2parent; Nick Danger; dead
A lot of guys are whipped cowards who bend a knee to their ex-wife's expectation that she'll be granted custody, plus their own lawyer's pronouncement that the ex is going to get custody, plus social expectations that women will be primary caregivers of a couple's children, et al.

I would say that guys need to plow through all that, and pursue at least joint residential custody.

I grant that a lot of guys are too much craven cowards to do so.

Anyway, all of that is distinct from the cases where perfectly fit fathers who DO want custody are royally shafted and rendered "visitors".

Such a rendering is a power that family courts should just plain not have.

No court should be able to deprive either parent of 50% of the time with their children, unless the parent is proven unfit under the strictest scrutiny standard.

87 posted on 07/02/2002 9:48:52 PM PDT by J.R.R. Tolkien
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To: J.R.R. Tolkien
I don't have any beef with men as custodial parents. For some strange reason, most of the time when I have a contested custody case I represent men.

However, the 50-50 split is a problem here in Northern Virginia, which is geographically a very large area, primarily when it comes to school, unless they live in the same school district. How do you make 50-50 visitation work without putting the kids into two schools, which won't work?

I am very impressed by the very rare set of parents who agree to live in the same school district.

The most impressive set of divorced parents I ever heard of bought houses on the same block so the kids could just walk to the other parent's house. They truly made 50-50 work.

On the other hand are the parents who move to another state. I guess sometimes it's essential to keep their jobs, but it is still regrettable, say if one parent moves across the country, so the kids have to get on an airplane by themselves to have visitation. Obviously in those cases 50-50 isn't going to work.
88 posted on 07/03/2002 2:03:03 AM PDT by CobaltBlue
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To: J.R.R. Tolkien
Such a rendering is a power that family courts should just plain not have.

Family court is a limited jurisdiction court. The problem with these courts is identifying which laws regulate particular issues, that may or may not be related to your dissolution action. Are they proceeding under juvenile court authority?

Parental termination laws are applied in a family court proceeding under juvenile court, or probate powers. A marriage dissolution is also handled in family court, and may include a custody determination, but, only when the state already has control of the children.

The termination of parental rights does require a strict scrutiny standard. Guardianship placement criteria for a state ward does not. They are controled by "best interest" standards. How many fathers do you know that have objected to a court assuming control of his children in a dissolution action? If a father posesses the right to guardianship by nature, a trial to terminate these rights is required before a court can lawfully take jurisdiction of a custody action in a dissolution proceeding. It's called jurisdiction of the cause.

As to joint custody, that kind of arrangement is the perrogotive of the father, if he maintains his right to the custody of his children. I don't know many men who would deny the kids' mother fair visitation, but the power to determine what is in the best interest of the children is vested in a father. This natural right is routinely abridged through trickery in a dissolution action. Normally, a father voluntarily stipulates to a custody arrangement, which is his right, but what he is not told is the court cannot interfere with his decision without cause. No-fault divorce does not mean no-fault custody. The two issues are regulated by different laws.

You'll find the "best interest" statutes were slipped into the dissolution chapter (revised statutes) without a clear reference to their original source. That's the problem with revised statutes. The purpose and subject matter of the law is described in it's title. When they are "compiled" in the revised statutes, the title is only found by a search through the statute's history. The heading of a chapter in the revised statutes does not always adequately describe the purpose of each provision.

You'll also find the case law relying on "best interest" standards are justified in cases dealing with extrordinary circumstances, where a court finds a parent's right to custody is challenged. The authority cited in these early cases are juvenile laws, justified by the state's inherent parens patriae powers. The reach of these laws are controled by the extent of this power. While it has been determined by the courts that the power will justify terminating, or temporarily suspending parental rights on purely economic grounds, the action otherwise relies on a finding of abuse, neglect, or abandonment.

Changing the public's perception regarding a patriarchial system of government is required, if we want to accomplish any true reform in the area of family law. Challenging the court's application of the law is a daunting task. Are you ready to stand up for your rights?

Now factor in an equal rights amendment. Not yet passed in Minnesota, thank God. Can the people agree to change our form of government by such an amendment? Who becomes the head of the household in such a case? It doesn't work. It is necessary that men and women have different rights in matters of domestic relations.

89 posted on 07/03/2002 6:45:38 AM PDT by right2parent
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To: CobaltBlue
Now let me guess. It's all the women's fault. The men would be wonderful fathers but the mothers won't let them.

Now you're catching on. That's why mostly women file for divorce since no-fault "liberated" them, and since the courts lost respect for natural rights, and since lawyers stopped challenging the courts taking charge of children without adjudicating the fitness of lawful guardians.

90 posted on 01/07/2003 12:22:54 PM PST by right2parent
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To: Illbay
Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but what percentage of single-parent homes are headed by fathers?

Obviously, not enough. That's the point.

91 posted on 01/07/2003 12:25:12 PM PST by right2parent
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To: Saundra Duffy

saundrahawkins@sbcglobal.net


92 posted on 03/12/2008 4:26:29 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: joathome

Your fourth grader would have done a better job.


93 posted on 03/12/2008 4:31:52 PM PDT by darkangel82 (If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. (Say no to RINOs))
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To: Saundra Duffy

Rita Santucci was with my father in California after the war. That’s what I just found out from my Aunt. They had a baby boy. I wish I could find my half brother. Dad is pretty sick and frail. Lives in Reno.


94 posted on 11/24/2008 10:02:14 PM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Saundra Duffy

Dad passed away 5/23/09.


95 posted on 07/02/2009 2:25:58 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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