On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[Jean Chauvin]

You guys are even arrogant with your capitalization.

Well, you got me on that one. though, if you go through my other posts, you would notice my usual practice of NOT capitalizing the C. I'm in a hurry to day and am not as carefull. (I also usually try to capitalize "Scripture" but I miss there once in a while -now don't accuse me of claiming Calvinism is superior to scripture! *grin*) Sorry, I'll try to keep that in check.

"Jean needs to point out where Arminius, Wesley or anyone of us has said "Buh-Bye" to anything on the list."

My point is not that you actually do not believe such, but that if the logical standards you hold us to with calvinism, then you should insist that we also deny the trinity... For who can actually believe that we believe in only one God while at the same time believing in three distinct, separate Persons. How can that be. We can't possibly believe that because it doesn't follow...

Jean

[RnMomof7]

Otherwise it's a misrepresentation. Something, of course, none of you calvinists would ever accuse the Arminians of doing.

If I have done that I am sorry..I two finger type..

[Ward Smythe]

Yep, a simple keystroke error shows a ton of arrogance.

Nah, I was just funnin' with ya, because in spite of callin' out the reinforcements ol' carnal, lazy, unregenerate Wesleyan Ward keeps hangin' on...

[Ward Smythe]

Absolutely not! Your concept does. You have already given me the debate:

No, Woody. I have not.

[Jerry_M]

"Jean needs to point out where Arminius, Wesley or anyone of us has said "Buh-Bye" to anything on the list."

Where did he say that you said "buh-bye"? His point was that you accept these as fact, even though the world considers them to be illogical. thus, as he points out, you are in danger when you insist that we meet the world's logical standards.

[CCWoody]

To further quote you: "Oh, baloney." The Calvinist construct is so brutal, so cold-hearted, so contrary to a real offer of salvation to all that its modern-day defenders (blessedly few) are reduced to highjacking phrases and turning them into half-truths and then claiming that they are being misquoted or misunderstood when the logical premise is made clear.

It is clear that you have no honest intention to either grant us our position or debate our position. You simply deny that we have a right to our position since you must distort it and declare it "brutal" and "cold-hearted". Your only intention it seems is show us your "Methodist Love"!

[Wrigley]

Ya know, I was actually thinking about how much arrogance is shown by someone commenting on how capitilizations show ones arrogance. But then I wouldn't want to make it too tough for you non-CALVINISTS to understand and further your view that we are arrogant. That is until I read the arrogance you showed in your last post about how reinforcements had to be brought in due to your ability to hang with us superior CALVINISTS. :-)

[Jerry_M]

Do I get "brownie points" for consistently capitalizing "Arminian"?

What a non-issue.

[RnMomof7]

So God is responsible for the evil of the Soviet Union? God is responsible for Hitler?
God is responsible for 9-11?
For Osama Bin Laden?

Could God have stopped them if He chose?

[Ward Smythe]

You may refuse to admit God's Sovereignty over men's salvation

I have never refused that. Nor did Wesley. I addressed my point in Post #178.

[xzins]

Your use of Joseph Stalin made we think of this: If an Arminian preached to Stalin (for which he would have probably been shot), and said "Comrade Stalin, Jesus died for your sins", and a Calvinist preached to Stalin (for which he too would have probably been shot) and said "Comrade Stalin, Jesus died for sinners", which one would have told the truth, in the end analysis?

The Arminian. The bible says, "not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

AND, the great conundrum is that no one knows what Stalin thought or did in those last moments of life on earth.

Jerry, if Stalin had in the last 2 minutes of his life turned to Jesus and said to him, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom," would we find Stalin in heaven?

[stuartcr]

God is responsible for all things, good or bad. If you would allow yourself to think that perhaps Christ did not die on the cross for our sins, this concept would not be so hard to at least think about.

[Ward Smythe]

Could God have stopped them if He chose?

Could they have stopped if they wanted to?

[RnMomof7]

Nah, I was just funnin' with ya, because in spite of callin' out the reinforcements ol' carnal, lazy, unregenerate Wesleyan Ward keeps hangin' on...

I will freely admit I asked Jean and OP to came take a look at the Calvin posts..They are historians, and know their respective doctrine..I can not well defend Calvin as I do not know that much about his work

Honest I did not call them to beat up on ya friend :>)

[Ward Smythe]

Stuart I cannot allow myself to think that.

[CCWoody]

I'm really glad the Apostle Peter didn't play such word games when he preached: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." [Acts 2:38]

One tiny little question: were they all baptized and saved?

[RnMomof7]

Could God have stopped them if He chose?
Could they have stopped if they wanted to?

You chose to give a non answer because you know well the implication of the truth

[stuartcr]

OK, then you will probably never come close to understanding how God could allow some things to happen. On a happier note though, I like to think we will get all the answers after we die, I just hope we can understand them.

[xzins]

Lord I know I have made mistakes but I trust to will forgive me .Please come into my heart"

How about this. One of the subordinate preachers (a supply pastor) went to one of our seminaries for a course of studies we require of anyone who wants to fill one of our pulpits. The Lady Teacher, when asked about the lost, told the class not to worry about that. She said, "Jesus descended to the dead and preached to them once." She followed up with, "He's already established a pattern. Don't worry about it. They'll all get another chance."

"It is given unto man once to die, and after this, the judgement."

[Ward Smythe]

Honest I did not call them to beat up on ya friend.

I just suddenly noticed I was surrounded with "so great a cloud of witnesses." ;-0

And I'll point back to my comments in #148.