Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
| FreeChoice Position. | Scripture | Implication | Calvinist Objection | Calvinist Implication |
| 1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace. | John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ." Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. |
People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice. | U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins. | God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed. |
| 2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved. | 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. |
The opportunity for Salvation is available to everyone. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sin. | L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.. | Christ's sacrifice was intended only for those who were chosen ahead of time for salvation. |
Does anything co-exist eternally with the Triune God? Or is He all that is eternal?
Jean
P.S. I'm having some weather/internet problems (a combination). I will be in and out for a while -probably mostly out.
Jean
Hello you little fleece bag. I know you didn't ask my opinion, but as usual, your probing intellect has caused me to stop in my tracks here. Would a regenerate believer even commit suicide? It's hard to believe, since why would we despair?-- we have everything. Yet, say that they did reach that point-- they gave up on fellowshipping and reading the Word, and prayer-- which would be necessary to reach such a hopeless state. Then it's between them and God, for only God knows all that happened-- and their sin is against God and God only, as well as themselves, ultimately -- and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. A failure to trust in Him is a failing, but is it unbelief? Does the sinner, in his darkest hour, say there is no God, and I will destroy myself! Or does he say, there's a God, but He cares nothing for me? If he was regenerate, in his darkest hour, he would know that there was none but God who could help him, and he would call on the Lord, and the Lord would answer. Thus he would not kill himself. How do I know? Been there.
Like you, I have also "been there" and I mostly agree with your sentiments. However, your most powerful point was made when you said; "...they did reach that point-- they gave up on fellowshipping and reading the Word, and prayer-- which would be necessary to reach such a hopeless state.". He is always near us, but your comment is the key to us remaining (abiding) in Him"
Next question...
Are we in Jesus, or is Jesus in us?
Not for the Reprobate it wouldn't be amazing grace would it?
Calvin here quoting Augustine,"Who created the reprobate but God? And why? Because He willed it. Why did He will it? 'Who are thou O man, that repliest against God'? (Eternal Predestination, Treasury of Evangelical writings,p.184)That about sums up the 'Grace' of Calvinism, great for the 'chosen' but woe to those who got left out! But hey, they were godless wretches anyway, right? Nice that Augustine would wrench a verse out of its context (referring to the discipline of the Jews and their partial hardening) but it does sum the Augustinian/Calvinistic systems final argument, 'It is the secret councils of God'
I doubt that they know what it is! Woody did not know that Calvin held to the two natured view in Romans 7 until he read it on one of my posts!
I think we are educating them on Calvinism!
See how Calvinists have to talk like NonCalvinists!
What do you mean 'all that will come'? The NonElect cannot come! They cannot come unless chosen remember? What you should have said is:
Here is the Gospel, and those that God has regenerated (having chosen you in eternity past by one eternal decree, but reprobating all others) you can now believe (having been regenerated already)
Why plead when it is already decided! It is you who is inconsistent with your system!
We know how important that choice is. We know that his eternal destiny is contingent upon his free-will choice of Christ. We don't have to use "Arminian" language, Calvinists have been pleading with men to turn to Christ since before te days of the Apostle Paul. Remember, we believe all of Scripture. What differentiates us from you is that we can believe all of Scripture even if there are large portions that stick in your craw.
You guys are truely amazing! For one thing a while back you made the statement that Calvinists 'seek souls like Arminians, and Arminians pray like Calvinists'(or words to that effect)
According to Calvinism, everyone has been chosen already by a Decree. No one can choose anything! That is Calvinism! Your pleadings to a free will choice are as far as consistent Calvinism as you can get! You need to go over your TULIP again! No one comes to God unless they were chosen in eternity past! Your appeals mean nothing to one who has had been Decreed to be reprobate (except to make you feel good and ignore the real implications of the Calvinistic system you cling to )
In my 'system' he is free to accept or reject the Gospel! He has not been forordained to either heaven or hell based on God's Decree.
You would rather fight with Calvinist than share the gospel with a mormon.
Well, why don't you ask White Mountain if I have shared the Gospel with him before shooting off your big mouth, or is that predestinated also.
According to your system, you have made yourself god over WM and determined that he is not fit for salvation
And just what is my 'system', you cannot even define your own system (or you are afraid to do so, then you can't duck and dodge any longer)
Good! Now we are getting somewhere! So God is the author of evil/sin is He? Did He want those to die in the Flood, or was it because of their wickedness
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth and it grieved him at his heartDid God want the Egyptians to die, is that why He sent plague after plague so they could repent. Phaoroah hardened his own heart the first two times (Ex.8:15,32)
Was God 'glorifed' when the children were thrown to Molach? That after all, according to your wicked system, was Decreed by God as good since it also resulted in His Glory! According to Jer.19 such a thing never even came into God's mind that the Jews would kill their own children. Yet, according to Calvinism, all thoughts and acts are God's will Isa.45:7 discusses that God gives judgement when grace is rejected but that is not what God wants as His first choice. That is man's rejection that moves God to Judge.
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live, turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways for why will ye die, O house of Israel (Ezk,33:11), Matthew 23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen her chickens under her wings and ye would not Lk.9:56, For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives but to save them, Rom 10:21, But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people 2Pet.3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness, but islongsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any perish, but that all should come to repentanceYou want to string a bunch of proof texts to show God's righteous judgement and pretend they relate to your 'eternal Decree' that makes every evil act ever done by Angel or man is directly tied to God's directive will. For every proof text you can string together to show God's judgement, I can get one that show God's Love and mercy for His creation!(Jonah 4:11)
To bad my 'sister' you did not check with White Mountain first about me giving him the Gospel!
Calvinism seems to really be helping your spiritual life!
OPie and Jerry need to come to agreement among themselves. See Jerry's #302. Jerry's view of Totally Depraved has quite consistently been more like wholly or utterly depraved, indistinguishable (thus far) from demonic.
Great parody!
Jerry, it does not help to set up straw men and knock them down. Ward is not arguing with that, obviously. He says so in his #1096. By OPie's logical charity principle, you know what Ward is trying to say and you can say it for him, if necessary, before responding to what you know his point is: "It speaks of a god who created Hitler['s evil choices and evil deeds]", as you go on to acknowledge.
You continue: it doesn't bother us one wit if you dance around saying "pride, Pride, PRIDE". We have heard far worse, and have come to expect it. We also know that those who matter will see right through your little charade
"those who matter". Not even, "those whose opinions matter", which would be bad enough. Yep, out of your own mouth, pride, pride, pride!
With OPie (see his #1051 and before), it is pride and arrogance and accusations of arrogance (projection of his own arrogance) masquerading as "confidence".
This is not Christian behavior.
Once again Woody, you have no answer to my posts, so you try to change the subject and make my religion the issue. The subject has been changed the whole day long. You are just admitting you have no good answer.
You try to tell the other free-will supporters that they must become Calvinists because otherwise you would associate them with me. Their responses show how absurd that tactic is. I post independently. Yet still you soldier on. You bring out the big guns. You appeal to ignorance and prejudice with the quote above, hoping to find some prejudice out there that you can exploit, in the name of "defending the faith".
We have been talking about Hitler lately. Do you condemn Hitler's appeals to ignorance and prejudice regarding the Jews, as a people and as a faith, which proved to be quite deadly? Do you see the hypocrisy in making a similar appeal yourself to the non-Calvinists here? Should the people of your community have fair warning should you ever run for an office of public trust?
You write: The reason that this is contradicted by your everyday experience is because you are still looking at the world with your natural eyes.
I said your beliefs are contradicted by your everyday experience. See if you can get it straight.
But clearly in your post you are claiming once again that I am unregenerate. You bear false witness in a very serious matter, for I am regenerate. You owe me yet another apology. These owed apologies will be neatly stacked at the bar of God, waiting for you. If you never take care of them, God will say, "Why do ye call Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?" Perhaps you will reply, "But I had this great conversion experience, and felt full of love towards God and my neighbor." Jesus will then give you the appropriate response, which may be, "Why did you not continue as you commenced?"
Think for a minute, if you can. Looking at the world through your supposedly spiritual eyes, when you see people paying for their purchases instead of shoplifting, is that evil? In your opinion, do natural eyes see righteous acts for what they are, but spiritual eyes see only evil instead? You are showing me that you do not know what it is to be born again, or what spiritual eyes are, despite all the impressive-sounding conversion stories you may tell. Your behavior towards those you disagree with, including me, and your attitude toward those you deem unregenerate, calls into question your own claimed regeneration.
When you are converted, Woody, strengthen the brethren.
That's silly, but it shows how you think. Calvinists are always accusing Arminians of considering themselves more powerful than God, or in this case considering their free will inviolable and God must accomodate. Again, that is a silly straw man.
The victim has free will, the murderer has free will, and God is sovereign over all. God sends the murderer to hell to suffer for his sins because he used his free will to deprive another of the ability to use his free will (in this life) to finish raising his children, or perhaps to have any at all, etc.
Your #1110: More of the same
More accusations. You may want to rewrite this. It doesn't hold together very well.
They can point out the errors of Calvinism publicly and share the Gospel with me publicly and privately at the same time, you know. Do you know for a fact that they haven't? It doesn't have to pass your inspection. And I can share the Gospel with them, publicly and privately!
Your tactics have been, if you are losing the debate with the non-Calvinists, change the subject and attack them!
Same old stuff.
We non-Calvinists, of course.
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