Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas
Well Jerry does have a point here X ,you do seem a bit more tolerant of "abuse" when you agree:>)
Here is the way I look at this guys...Jim has been saying those things to me for many posts..he is very angry because I "threaten" what he believes..My response has been to ignore most of it.
Rememebr that Paul stood and watched Steven stoned. I did my own share of "confrontive" posts on this topic aimed at Jerry , doc , Woody ,GWB and then Uriel .I too kicked against the goad..
No I will not hit abuse on him. I take him as a brother in Christ that has a different doctrinal position on regeneration. My words are frightening. They may mean that HE can not SAVE all those that HE wants to..All his evangelization may be out of HIS hands..that is a very scary thought.I have been there.
I wonder now why I thought it was ok that beloved friends and family refused the gospel and went to hell ..I did not want to consider that after all the decision is really Gods.
So I let Jim be angry and trust that if God wants him to understand and accept the doctrines of grace He will lead him there..if not it is not a matter of his salvation..that too is all of God even if we kick against the goad *grin*
First, one doesn't tolerate what one doesn't know about. I was not following this thread.
Second, it's your responsibility. Not mine
Third, I've got to leave, and later prepare for church tomorrow. I'll probably be on briefly this evening, so I'll not be able to respond until then.
(That could be the problem here. Also, please don't quit reading until you come to the very end of this post.)
I agree with doc that you have been satanically suckered. However, the only reason I tell you this is so that you can be aware of his activities, and resist him. If I didn't care about you I would let you go merrily on your way and never confront what I see to be serious error in the non-Calvinist position. Guess what, doc, Mom, Woody, and myself were once in your same position. All of us found ourselves satanically suckered in exactly the same way. All of use held to a soteriology that really wasn't the Gospel of God's grace. All of us denied God's absolute right to be absolutely sovereign over His creation. Know why I bother with you when I have written off others? Because I see a seed of hope in you. I see that you are exactly where I was just prior to my wonderful discovery of the immensity of God's grace.
I am praying that you have the same experience I did when I was first awakened to the truth of this "marvelous yet terrible" doctrine. Another reason I pinged you with the link to Spurgeon's "Defense of Calvinism", was due to the fact that Spurgeon describes this exact same process. Do yourself a favor, and go read that message. I truly believe that God wants you to experience Him the same way that we do, that you will throw off any notion that man is saved based on his choices, and is only saved based on the sovereign elective choice of God. If you ever do experience this, you will be a changed man forever, especially in your worship of the mighty God who does all things well.
If, and when, you ever do get to that point, you will see that doc's "abuse" of you by stating that you have been satanically deceived was really God's tool to wake you from your slumber. You will see that God "meant it for good", even though you consider it to be "evil against you".
I'm not impressed when a man, any man, a thousand and more years after Christ, announces that he has the 'true meaning' of the bible that - of course - always agrees witth Paul or Christ, or both but simply wasn't recognized or understood before, or was oppressed by evil men. Not an original approach.
Calvinism, whatever you call it and however you like to sugarcoat it, is a man-made doctrine that takes a few words and phrases from the bible, imparts meanings from these few words to encompass the entire bible, Old and New Testament alike and weaves a web of 'bibical' doctrine that the uninformed accept from charismatic preachers and teachers...always thundering that they have this doctrine from God or Divine Revelation or whatever. Fortunately, it's not the sixteenth or ninteenth century anymore and free people can read scripture for themselves and see the falsity of this Calvinist doctrine so forcefully stated by it's followers, all claiming to be reading it the 'right' way, from God. Of course. What else would they say?
Followers of Calvinist predestination doctrine base their churches and belief system on this false reading of scripture and it's natural that they will defend it to the death and - no small point - be quite pleased with their 'elected' status in the process. Don't tell me it isn't so, I've seen it.
They will accuse opponents of not 'allowing' God complete control over His creation (picking and choosing who will be saved) and in the same breath, claim that God - the same God who came to us as a man, willingly died on a cross for us, proclaimed from his own lips that He died for all men, (not only some 'elect') and commanded His followers to go to the whole world and deliver the Good News of salvation - this same God creates men and women, only to condemn them to hell before they are even conceived. How inconsistant with scripture and God's demonstrated love and desire for all of his creation to be with him is that - and how foolish?
Claims that opponents of Calvinism and it's exclusionary doctrine 'don't understand it' are the last refuge of the man who cannot justify his position and falls back on dubious accusations of 'mis-stating our position' and so on. You sound like a politician caught backing a bad piece of legislation only in this instance it's false doctrine. Your Calvinist position is quite clear, we have over 500 posts on it, many from you and your brothers-in-error on this tedious thread. Claims of 'You don't understand us' and 'You're misrepresenting our doctrine!' fall flat. Readers that care can read your words here. Are they not clear? If so, no matter what I state, your words should stand alone, as mine do. I'm letting the lurkers decide whom and what they believe about this false Calvinist doctrine.
Adding another 500 posts would be pointless, for me. It just becomes a shouting match and positioning for advantage in some meaningless internet controversy that solves nothing and goes nowhere. Everyone in the discussion emds up believing exactly what they did when the thread began and nothing changes in any way. Feelings get bruised when your pet religious belief is challenged as false, I know, but I have no choice but to confront inaccurate doctrine posing as the 'true' meaning of scripture and nature of God. I get cranky when Calvinists twist and turn to defend their doctrine and attempt to assume some unproven superior knowledge to make thir argument carry more weight than it can. I've presented clear, unequivocal scripture that shows God's gift of Free Will for mankind to accept salvation and they have been either ignored or some other scripture is thrown up like a shield or the poster sidesteps into some accusation of misrepresentation of the Calvinist doctrine. Very well. I've stated my case, clearly. You are beyond accepting what scripture makes clear and I always realized you would be. What Calvinist is going to admit he 'may' have misread scripture most of his life? The doctrine becomes more important than anything else, excepting salvation. So be it. Those who embrace this false doctrine will do so, no matter what some fellow on the internet posts on a messageboard. Understood.
I stand by the bible as it's written, not following a false interpretation of a few selected words from a few passages proposed by a preacher or church 'leader' out of the sixteenth century and claimed as the 'true' meaning from God.
It's a wonder how God allowed His Word to exist for 1500 years without the help of John Calvin. All those poor, condemned-from-before-time-began souls that died unsaved for 15 centuries but were doomed to hell anyway because they weren't 'elected'. How transparently false a doctrine you folks embrace and defend, pretending it's the Word of God when the Word is clear and disagrees with your ancient findings from people who were in grave error regarding the will of God to begin with.
I have stated my position many, many times on this thread and will leave it now, not to return. I simply see no point in debating in endless circles and the personal stuff is easy to slip into but not productive for anyone no matter who starts it. Enough of that - and the whole argument.
Don't bother pinging me - pro or con - as I'll ignore anything under this thread from this point on.
I've said my piece, over and over. Now, it's just blathering and the need to be 'right' for those on both sides of the issue. If you haven't made your case by now, you don't have much of a case to make.
I do, I have and I now close.
au contraire, we have seen several folks who have come to acknowledge the "doctrines of grace" as a result of these discussions. Funny, I haven't seen any go the other way and start saying "Guess what, the non-Calvinists are correct, I really did choose to be saved".
Anyway, it would be a lie to say that I will miss you. Adios.
If you believe that you really don't understand the power of evil--darkness and self deception and are still under the influence of false religion---works!
Free will...are we floating in a vacuum? Maybe your head-soul is thinking that--pig iron(self righteousness--arrogance)!
You remind me...and for years I have marvelled---at white water rafters--kayakers who paddle furiously(futilely) at the rocks--currents--depths when only Christ has conquered evil--death. Martin Luther taught your nothing saves you--all your efforts propel you further from God---give it up---hubris is right--you got a big one(nuclear engine)---propeller--paddle!
A thousand miles/second into the depthless depth of a lost eternity!
By believing in free will you are the control--works freak...
election means God's got the control--outcome--finish...there's no game--multiple choices!
If you don't like the rain, you can stay in the house---that ain't gonna make the sun come out!
If the rain don't stop---better start swimming till your lungs fill up!
Is your free will gonna change anything?
Hate to beat a dead horse so bad...
Your comments are certainly interesting as is your smugness about your false doctrine of prodestination.
Hope your not too dense to get it---prOdestination---FOLLY!
This is really bad...prodestination...
The joy of Christ is that our acceptance of Him is voluntary.
Hmm...."voluntary"---very big of you...
Push the right buttons--code...
We are not robots...
our acceptance--choice gives God an ego boost?
Give the tin man a shot of oil?
Boost in God's ratings---"voluntary" applause?
Isn't this all worldy---you think predestinatian is hokey...
prodestination---audience participation is camp---trashy!
"diminishing Almighty God"...??? Ask the man out on the street---letterman-leno??
You're on the stage hamming it up---pity-pity---impromptu---God improvisation---interpretations of scriptures---the spotlight...what an act---
look who's in the last row laughing at you--me!
Prodestination...is that what you are!
Free will-choice---you sound like a liberal!
Or, as in my case, "especially if they are a stubborn old cuss"!!
Good post. Mom, here is another one for the BUMP list.
Welcome brother.Excellent post ! .May I add you to the Calvin bump list?
Jerry,Sola the beat goes on :>))
Please do--thank you!
You know, Jerry, I posted tho show that Jim's reading of 1 Tim. 2:4 actually calls for the praying to overthrow the very PROPHECIES OF GOD and all Jim could say was I don't understand it. He is thoughtless handling Scriptures. Perhaps he will see this one day.
So? I don't see any problem with God showing favoritism.
I do have a big problem with the notion of a God Who is unfair, doesn't treat all men with righteous equity or lies when He offers them salvation...knowing all the while He has not chosen them.... and therefore salavation is really not offered to them at all.
(..and He knows it)
How can anybody trust a Gospel message, that preaches Christ died for your sins, and offers you salvation if you believe and accept Him as your Savior....UNLESS of course God decided He wanted to send you to Hell...then it won't do you any good to believe and accept the Gospel message...cause God decide before you were born to fry you in Hell...NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO or Believe.
What a wonderful Gospel message.. Incredible!
For one who claims to give all credit to God, this is one of the most pretentious self-righteous condescending judgements of other Christians I have seen.
"that person is saved (even if they are a stubborn old cuss)"
....as if you are so much more worthy than others?
Gag me with a spoon!
The hypocrital and contradictory nature of Calvinist arguments never ceases to amaze me.
The Bible teaches both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility when it comes to salvation.
Otherwise God could not fairly hold man responsible for rejecting Christ......because according to Calvinist, God is the One responsible....and yet He punishes man. How warped.
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