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Evolution debate: State board should reject pseudoscience
Columbus Dispatch ^ | February 17, 2002 | Editorial

Posted on 02/18/2002 4:59:53 AM PST by cracker

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To: lexcorp
"The 18th and 19th centuries witnessed the rise of positive sciences, and with this an intensification in skepticism about God and the claims of traditional religion, especially among the educated classes. This inclination became most marked after the publication of The Origin of the Species and The Descent of Man by the naturalist Charles Darwin. Darwin ascribed man's immediate ancestry to the anthropoids, supposedly through a process of gradual evolution. Man was no longer a creature made in the image of God, but merely a natural extension of certain lower forms of life, a... refined gorilla---as it were. It was these circumstances, and this intellectual milieu, that led philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche to declare that "God is dead" and to predict the rise of new and terrible manisfestations of barbarism in the century that was to come. As he put it, "For ... we shall have upheavals, a convulsion of earthquakes, a moving of mountains and valleys, the like of which have never yet been dreamed of ... there will be wars the like of which have never yet been seen on earth." The non-believer Nietzsche would agree wholly with the Christian believer Dostoyevsky about one thing: Without faith in God, all horrors, all of man's worst nightmares, would become possible. And so they did. What men believe really matters. "

A John? Huss? in the 15th century was burned to death for singing songs and reading the Bible not in Latin---tyranny is tryanny of any stripe/color--especially intellectual--govt. state sponsored--established--enforced!

Why do some people only--NOT think---two-dimensional in a multi-dimensional world--dynamics?

181 posted on 02/21/2002 12:23:51 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: biblewonk
Science = truth. It's a pretty simple definition.

False. Science deals with methods, experiments, evidence, etc. There are too many truths.

182 posted on 02/21/2002 12:24:16 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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To: Sabertooth
Adam and Eve were free to sin.

Obviously.

183 posted on 02/21/2002 12:26:20 PM PST by xzins
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Comment #184 Removed by Moderator

To: Doctor Stochastic
Indeed.

If all scientific conclusions are tentative, subject to revision at any time based upon new evidence and further study...

And if truth is fixed, constant, and immutable...

There is no such thing as a truth in science.
185 posted on 02/21/2002 12:29:39 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Science = truth. It's a pretty simple definition.

False. Science deals with methods, experiments, evidence, etc. There are too many truths.

Sorry but you're wrong. Science = knowledge = truth. There aren't more than one truths. The scientific method is a system but it is not the definition of science.

186 posted on 02/21/2002 12:30:27 PM PST by biblewonk
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To: biblewonk
It is also impossible to disprove that God didn't just create me in the middle of typing this sentence.

It's likewise impossible to disprove that the Flute-Playing Locust didn't create you earlier today either. Neither of these possibilities helps you decide anything about scientific inquiry.

187 posted on 02/21/2002 12:31:59 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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To: lexcorp
Wrong

wrong

wrong

wrong

wrong

If you think we understand snow than that shows a lot about your knowledge of snow.

188 posted on 02/21/2002 12:32:33 PM PST by biblewonk
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To: xzins
not obvious...did Adam and Eve have the possibilty to not sin?
189 posted on 02/21/2002 12:33:21 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: biblewonk
Science = knowledge = truth

Name one scientific conclusion that is not subject to future revision based upon further evidence and study? Those who thought that Newtonian Mechanics was the Truth had a rude awakening when Einstein came along.

Or is is that you believe truth is fluid, forever changing as we gather more and more evidence?
190 posted on 02/21/2002 12:38:08 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: BikerNYC
Einstein didn't change the definition of science at all, but scientific method will never be able to prove the past. It can't even prove whether a person has a soul or not. It will never ever prove a big bang though millions will and do swear that it does.

PS. I know a biker who considers himself "a true natures child". What a great theme for an evolutionist, "Born to be Wild".

191 posted on 02/21/2002 12:57:26 PM PST by biblewonk
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To: biblewonk
That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard on one of these threads. A 100 million yearold fossil of a human skeleton to disprove evolution? HELLO!

I don't see the problem. Evolution predicts that anatomically modern humans have only existed for a few million years. Prior to that, they had not evolved. If a skeleton were unearthed tomorrow of an anatomically modern human, but which was dated by rigorous methods to be 100 million years old, that would tend to disprove evolution.

The fact that you find it so hard to beleive that a 100 million year old human fossil could exist is a testament to the explanatory power of evolution.

This is true of both. You are sadly in a state of denial. The only way to disprove creation is for it not to be true. I can't imagine how to disprove that 2+2=4 either. It is also impossible to disprove that God didn't just create me in the middle of typing this sentence. Science can only prove how things are now, not how they came to be.

2+2=4 is not science, it is math. (it's also not a theory, it's a definition) Falsifiability is not a good criteria of mathematical propositions because theories in mathematics are not the same as theories in physics or biology. Mathematics relies on proofs and lemmas; science relies on observation and hypothesis.

It would be more appropriate to suggest that you don't know how to disprove gravity, or the existence of the neutron. Of course, we can think of how to disprove gravity: if an object fell at a velocity that was constant (but not terminal wrt the atmosphere), then Newton and Einstein would be wrong. Falsifiability is a very good test of theories because it eliminates useless theories (i.e. those with no explanatory or predictive power). If there is no conceivable fact that could disprove a theory, then the theory explains nothing. (See, e.g., Karl Popper)

The only way to disprove creation is for it not to be true.

You hint at the real issue here: what observation, if it could be made and confirmed in the world today, would disprove creationism? I daresay you shoudl be able to come up with many such examples if creationism is falsifiable. In addition to the skeleton and DNA examples above, it is possible to think of millions of such observations which if made would damage or destroy the theory of evolution. The fact that those observations are NOT made (the dog does not bark), is itself strong evidence for evolution. Suffice it to say that creationism is unfalsifiable.

192 posted on 02/21/2002 12:58:00 PM PST by cracker
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To: biblewonk
I call them government churches because evolution is a religion. The Darwin fish proves that at least some evolutionists admit that truth.

The Darwin Fish is a joke on creationists. Also, they're out there and have been out there.

193 posted on 02/21/2002 1:00:19 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: biblewonk
That wasn't my point. My point was that since science's conclusions are always tentative and subject to revision, science does not give us truth (as long as truth is understood to be eternal and unchanging).
194 posted on 02/21/2002 1:01:59 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: BikerNYC
Sorry, I totally missed your point and was arguing a small use of the word truth instead of THE big use of the word Truth.
195 posted on 02/21/2002 1:06:47 PM PST by biblewonk
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To: gore3000
Please show me proof of ANY "how we got here" theory.

Oldcats

196 posted on 02/21/2002 1:09:16 PM PST by oldcats
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To: VadeRetro
It's way more than that. I love the things. They prove my whole point about evo being a religion.
197 posted on 02/21/2002 1:09:38 PM PST by biblewonk
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To: BikerNYC
If God is spirit, what is spirit?

Good question. As far as I know the best way to find out is to look up the word translated "spirit" and see how it is used in other writings. And then find out what that word meant in the culture and time it was written.

I've heard the idea described as we are the only creatures with the ability to commune with God. But, contrary to what some women have told me, I'm not really a pig, so I can't tell you if pigs can commune with God. Then again, this idea may be way off base.

198 posted on 02/21/2002 1:09:53 PM PST by scripter
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To: scripter
Would it be fair to say that, in other words, you don't know?
199 posted on 02/21/2002 1:12:00 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: biblewonk
It's way more than that. I love the things. They prove my whole point about evo being a religion.

Creationists only think everything's about religion.

200 posted on 02/21/2002 1:12:01 PM PST by VadeRetro
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