Posted on 01/23/2002 9:15:27 AM PST by Chapita
Since there was no recording system, I doubt it would be in the record unless it was requested and provided in documentary form by Crockett!
Actually, there were transciptionists working for Congress from Day One...just like "court recorders" today.
And you don't think that is subject to subjectivity?
It's just that SOME of us have had access to actual "fragments" and copies of ancient works. The Bible is one of the MOST independently verified collations in ancient literature. Some fragments and entire chapters have been documented and examined personally by friends, other scholars who we KNOW are paper and ancient INK experts. The evidence is indisputable and verified from secular sources of the times. and those sources such as the works of Josephus et al. are all verified and cross referenced by scholars worldwide. THIS story smacks of "good ole boy" feel good CREATIVE writing based on perhaps true incidents, but embellished for public consmption.
Posting on the web does not make it so. Published or certified scribal manuscripts (legal copies of yesteryear) for over 1700 years, the Bible stands FAR above the work of this Ellis guy. so perhaps does my recent copy of Silver Surfer bought at the local comic book exchange for $300.
Beleive what you want. Huck makes a good point. Don't believe it because it rings true with your values and makes you feel validated. Beleive things because they ARE KNOWN to be true. This story is just a story.
Footnotes and sources vindicate real historical records. Huck and appy are right to question this story. Josephus in his "history of the jews" and "wars of the jews" makes continual references to other events and resources, including library collections to back up his historical accounts of events before and during his literary generation.
We would be wise to do the same thing.
I like that. Of course it basically gilds the truth, these old codgers lied to us with pretty words to make us feel good. I like the old jack webb saying from the "FBI" program, "simply the facts ma'm, simply the facts." da--- da-da-da.
The Gilded Age refers to the period of American history from about 1877 (the end of Reconstruction) to 1917 (US entry into World War I).
They are a lot more successful than they would have imagined, IMHO!
- 5.7: Not Yours to Give
- personal archives | Provided as courtesy by Charles Starr for Congress
One day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of the widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Mr. Crockett arose: "Mr. Speaker - I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this house, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living ...Posted on 1/23/02 10:15 AM Pacific by Chapita
- 5.7: Not Yours to Give
- http://www.starr4congress.org | Philadelphia: Porter & Coates, 1884 | DAVEY CROCKETT
ne day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of the widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Mr. Crockett arose: "Mr. Speaker - I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this house, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living ...Posted on 8/20/01 1:03 AM Pacific by ATOMIC_PUNK
- 5.5: Not Yours To Give-Colonel David Crockett U.S. Congressman
- Devvy's Project | 1884 with comment by Devvy Kidd 8/8/98 | Edward S Elliss with comments by Devvy Kidd
NOT YOURS TO GIVE From the Life of Colonel David Crockett Member of the U.S. Congress 1827-31 & 1832-35 Complied from The Life of Colonel David Crockett by Edward S. Ellis (Philadelphia: Porter & Coates, 1884) One day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose: "Mr. Speaker - I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy ...Posted on 4/26/01 8:59 AM Pacific by CyberSpartacus
- 5.7: Not Yours To Give
- Conservaive U.S.A. | 1884 | Col. David Crockett; US Representative from Tennessee
In the lobby of the House of Representatives when a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support, rather . . . The Speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose: "Mr. Speaker -- I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the sufferings of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for ...Posted on 11/20/00 7:53 PM Pacific by rainingred
- 5.7: Not Yours to Give
- ConservativeUSA | none | Davy Crockett
The Conservative Caucus Documents of Freedom Collection "Not Yours To Give" by Col. David Crockett US Representative from Tennesee Originally published in "The Life of Colonel David Crockett," by Edward Sylvester Ellis. One day in the House of Representatives a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose: "Mr. Speaker--I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, ...Posted on 8/9/00 6:24 AM Pacific by OWK
- 5.5: Colonel David Crockett: "Not Yours To Give"
- U.S. Rep. Ron Paul Website | Unknown | David Crockett
The Office of U.S. Rep. Ron Paul 203 Cannon HOB Washington, DC 20515 (202) 225-2831 Not Yours To Give Col. David Crockett US Representative from Tennessee Originally published in "The Life of Colonel David Crockett," by Edward Sylvester Ellis. Also available as a plain text file and as a .prc file for the PalmPilot. One day in the House of Representatives a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett ...Posted on 3/6/00 10:25 AM Pacific by Thanatos
- 5.4: Not Yours to Give -- Speech Before the House of Representatives by David (Davy) Crockett
- Equal Time (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~equaltime/index.html) | 10/10/99
One day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Mr. Crockett arose: "Mr. Speaker --- I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this house, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living ...Posted on 10/10/99 6:37 AM Pacific by Miles Bennel
- 5.7: FREEDOM AIN'T YOURS TO GIVE
- Special to THE LIBERTARIAN ENTERPRISE | Bruce Elmore <mailto:wheelnut@flash.net>
Excuse me for even asking this, but I have some questions. I have been thinking about Freedom, and this thing we call Liberty. I have been thinking especially hard about these things since the formal beginning of Fascism in America this year. It seems to me, that I am living amongst a large bunch of candy assed suck ups who are asking themselves how much Freedom they should be asking the Government for. Forgive me, but I have a problem with the basic premise of the question. "Oh what a lovely day it is Mrs. Murphy. Tell me, do you ...Posted on 8/1/99 8:08 AM Pacific by nsmart
- 5.5: Not Yours to Give (From The Life of Colonel David Crockett)
- The Freeman | 96 | Leonard Read
One day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose: "Mr. Speaker — I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the sufferings of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living ...Posted on 7/20/99 7:43 AM Pacific by OWK
- 5.7: Freedom Ain't Yours To Give
- 1999 | Lurker
Freedom Ain't Yours To Give Excuse me for even asking this, but I have some questions. I have been thinking about Freedom, and this thing we call Liberty. I have been thinking especially hard about these things since the formal beginning of Fascism in America this month. It seems to me, that I am living amongst a large bunch of candy assed suck ups who are asking themselves how much Freedom they should be asking the Government for. Forgive me, but I have a problem with the basic premise of the question. "Oh what a lovely day it is Mrs. ...Posted on 7/12/99 11:11 PM Pacific by Lurker
- 5.7: NOT YOURS TO GIVE
- Posted on 11/29/99 4:00 PM Pacific by (Unknown)
- 5.7: Freedom Ain't Yours To Give
- Posted on 11/29/99 4:00 PM Pacific by (Unknown)
- 5.6: NOT YOURS TO GIVE - Davy Crockett
- Posted on 11/29/99 4:00 PM Pacific by (Unknown)
- 5.7: Not Yours to Give
- Posted on 11/29/99 4:00 PM Pacific by (Unknown)
- 5.7: Not Yours To Give
- Posted on 11/29/99 4:00 PM Pacific by (Unknown)
Do you think the author of the book could have gotten by with this kind of falsehood in those times? - ChapitaFrom post 225 by tyen on Not Yours to Give Posted on 08/09/2000 06:24:46 PDT by OWK:Yes, quite easily--because they actually did. There was quite a "quote-manufacturing" cottage industry going in those days. Many statements attributed to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Daniel Webster, and other great figures of American history in reality trace back no further than the pen of some Gilded Age writer. - Poobah
It appears that this speech ALSO appears in Davy Crockett's autobiography - not just in the frequently cited book by Edward Sylvester Ellis - which would strengthen the case for its authenticity, IMHO.The first time I read this speech, I was so moved by its relevance to our times that I went out and sought the book it came from, Crockett's autobiography. The book describes an era that has passed, and God willing, we shall see the good influences of that era again in the near future. I placed a bookmark on the starting page of this speech.
For the sake of others who want their own copy of the autobiography, I purchased my copy of the book by using Advanced Book Exchange, a portal for used booksellers. Go to the search page, enter "Crockett, Davy" in the Author field, enter "own story" in the Title field, and press the Start Search button. There are some nice editions our there right now, and they sure beat the heck out of Disney's
books onmarketing tie-ins on Crockett.Finally, for those reading this who object to Crockett's less than lily-white life...rent a clue, and move out of your glass house.
Later, when asked by a friend why he had opposed the appropriation, Crockett gave this explanation:"Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was attracted by a great light over Georgetown.
See? The meat of the tale can't even be confirmed by Congressional Record, because it happened later, after the vote. We might be able to look up the writings of his "friend", but his name is not disclosed in the story. We can't look up the Appropriations bill, because it isn't identified. We can't even narrow it down to a year, since Crockett served three terms in Congress, the 20th, 21st, and 23rd, spanning several years.
In the story he relates to his friend, he does say that it was "several years ago [he] was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress." We might then begin our investigation of House appropriations with his last term, in the case of the Naval Officer's widow, or to his first term, in the case of the Georgetown fire. Speaking of which, we might look into Georgetown history and see what great fire coincided with any of the Congresses of which Crockett was a member.
But I would think that just bringing these questions to light should demonstrate once and for all what a flimsy little fable this is. It certainly has its emotional appeal. I give old Mr. Ellis credit for that. But to simply paste this up on a noteworthy Conservative board and take it as the truth is beyond silly. It's sloppy. It's amazing Mr. Ambrose is in the trouble he is in. You would think nobody bothered to check. It seems to me this tale would be much more worthwhile presented for what it is: a tale. Meanwhile, if anyone wants to spend the time tracking down the facts, more power to you. It would probably make an interesting investigative piece. Hell, I have half a mind to take it on myself.
That wasn't so hard now, was it? ;-P
Register of Debates. This was the precursor to the Congressional Record while Crockett was a member of Congress.
That doesn't answer for the rest of the tale, the Horatio Bunce part. I don't know how we verify that. If it did come from Crockett's autobiography, then it may be that's where Mr. Ellis got it from. It'd be interesting to compare, if that's the case. But if he got his from Crockett, it doesn't really help to verify the story, unless we deem the autobiography as reliable. And that is, at least here among us, an open question. But thanks for finding that tidbit, because it led me to look up his autobiography. From that search I learned that it supposedly included transcripts of speeches from the Register of Debates, hence the link. Isn't this fun? Too bad we have to work for a living, or we could research this stuff all day. I would enjoy that.
"One day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of the widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Mr. Crockett arose:Urban legend or true story, the central argument of Colonel Crockett's "Not Yours to Give" speech certainly applies to the current discussion about the allocation of federal tax dollars to the victims of 9/11, does it not?'Mr. Speaker - I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this house, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please to charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money. Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a debt due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him.He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and as, not doubt, it would but for that speech, it received but few votes, and of course was lost.'Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much money of our own as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the object, and, if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks.'
Later, when asked by a friend why he had opposed the appropriation, Crockett gave this explanation..."
.
(If you want OFF - or ON - my "Hugh Hewitt PING list" - please let me know.)
Too bad we have to work for a living, or we could research this stuff all day. I would enjoy that.LOL!!! Me, too.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.