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The Next Reformation? 9.5 Thesis Posted on 'Church Door'!
The Prophecy Reformation Institute ^
| 2001
| John Noe
Posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: don-o
I am anti-satan.
Our flesh is all that divides.
"I don't understand election, therefore I won't believe it."
"I don't understand grace, therefore I will try to work it off."
I don't understand sanctification,therefore I will just be satisfied with my one time prayer."
I don't understand total fulfillment, therefore I will seek for it else where."
"I don't understand rules, therefore I make up my own."
I don't understand anything, so I will let others tell me what is truth rather than Gods word!"
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Why has God allowed His church to exist like it has for the last 2000 years?
102
posted on
01/14/2002 5:06:06 PM PST
by
vmatt
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
I will have to answer you any further questions tonight.
I have to make the long hike home (2 hrs).
God Bless.
To: vmatt
Why has God allowed His church to exist like it has for the last 2000 years?
I wish I knew why.
I just believe He has a plan for man which spans an eternity. I don't think a literal blissful Eden is enough to give us the discipline we need.
I believe He holds the pattern of trials for all men to give us what we need.
What if God endured the vessels of wrath for the purpose of showing the vessels of mercy how great His love for us really is?
To: vmatt
#103 was to you. Sorry.
To: don-o
I am now a Moonie.OOHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ****GRIN******
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame. Actually, there's a disconnect between what the author says in point 5 and how the old testament community viewed this 100% accuracy rule. In Micah 5:2, Micah prophesies that Bethlehem would have a ruler come out of it. This clearly was seen by the scholars in King Herod's day as having been a futuristic prophecy; one that had not yet been fulfilled.
In Micah's day, they realized that no ruler had come forth from Bethlehem to fulfill Micah's prophecy. Wonder why they didn't stone Micah for being a false prophet? Instead, rather than be even slightly upset with him, they included him in the list of biblical books.
They must have had some guideline they used to determine when a prophet was speaking about something that had yet to take place in the far distant future.
In the Olivet discourse, it's obvious that Jesus is in many portions talking about the far distant future. Luke reports that Jesus said, "Jerusalem will be trodden under foot of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles come to an end." Then he talks of signs in the heavens, etc.
It's not possible for a truly honest person to say that that verse simply cannot be viewed futuristically. An honest person will allow that these are future things.
(Incidentally, it's in the context of this Jerusalem/Gentiles statement that the "this generation shall not pass away" statement is properly placed.
It's easy for an honest person to allow that that statement refers to the future generation that sees these things coming to pass. It's also easy for an honest person to relate the Greek "gens" which means either "generation" or "racial group" to be speaking of the Jewish race; especially given that the entire context is of their near destruction by the Gentiles.
107
posted on
01/14/2002 5:24:33 PM PST
by
xzins
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Got it. We might not be on the same verse, but we are in the same song.
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
The harlot, or Babylon, was Jerusalem of that day.
Your premise is interesting. The more I read the Bible and see the rocky relationship between God and the Jewish people, the more I have come to wonder if Jerusalem could be Babylon, not in the past, but in the future. Could that be the reason God says there will be a New Jerusalem?: "Revelation 21 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (I have also read that Babylon represents Satan's rule on earth.) However, while the city was destroyed in 70 AD, it seems that a lot of the prophecies still remain unfulfilled. CCWoody mentioned some. Take Revelation 16 for another example, specifically verses 19 and 20: "19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." Link I've never been to Jerusalem, but pictures I've seen seem to show the Mount of Olives still standing. "Zechariah 14:3-5 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." Link Has the mountain cleaved? I'm asking because I don't know.
There are many, many other examples, I believe, but what do I know; I'm still learning. My only concern is that some might be lulled into putting off the most important decision they will ever make, or will be deceived into following false messiahs. I've found two TV programs that I have really enjoyed watching to learn more about the Bible. One is Shepherd's Chapel, (which has recently been discontinued in my area) but which is available on-line at www.shepherdschapel.com , and the other is Amazing Facts at www.amazingfacts.tv (or www.amazingfacts.org) Maybe you know about them. The first is taught by a tough ex-Marine of the Korean War (Pastor Arnold Murray, or sometimes by his son, Dennis). The latter is taught by a Jewish, former atheist, now-Christian pastor. Two distinctly different personalities and teaching methods; both very knowledgeable. Amazing facts has another website, www.bibleuniverse.com, from which I'll leave you with these additional links: here, here, and here (Satan, sin, Babylon, the mark of the Beast, etc).
One more thought from bibleuniverse.com (How should I study the Bible): "Only those who are willing to love and accept the truth when it is made plain, and do not seek to construct arguments against it, will be preserved from the dangers of self deception. God will not force us to believe anything against our will. However, His word clearly describes what will happen to those who still choose to believe, contrary to what He has plainly said: "Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved…God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thessalonians 2: 10,11.
Whew! May the truth be made plain to all of us. And may God's blessings be upon your family.
To: Ethan_Allen
AMEN
To: xzins
This generation.
Matt 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation.
This passage alone, along with all time statements, if taken in context, by the apostles ("this is the last hour", "in these last days", "coming soon", etc) leave an HONEST man, who would call Jesus one, without a futurist leg.
Christ declared the "time of vengeance (Luke 21:22) to come upon THOSE MEN (Matt 23:33-36) and that is when it would ALL (Daniel 12) be "fulfilled."
However you talk yourself into a future view by twisting Christs words in Matt 24, you cannot make it fit the context of all scripture and the continued imminency preached by the apostles.
To: Ethan_Allen
I cannot say much about your response being that I lack actual fulfillmen evidence off hand. I do know that Josephus not only declared the Jewish Wars to be direct punishment from God for the evil done by his people, but he also records much evidence which leads to fulfillment that is consistant with old testament fulfillment.
The "signs" in the heavens were used at least 4 times in the old testament for old testament prophecy fulfillment. It was never literal.
The new Jerusalem is the Church.
A simple word study of "a bride adorned for her husband" will tell you that the church is the "bride" in the new testament.
The destructions of mountains in Revelation is figurative. No more literal than an actuall "beast" or "dragon" or "harlot" on a horse. It symbolizes removing the boundries from all nations which kept them from God. Christ became the "Way" for all men.
The temple was a foothold the Jews held until Christ destroyed it, as promised (Matt23,24) in 70 AD.
As far as this:
One more thought from bibleuniverse.com (How should I study the Bible): "Only those who are willing to love and accept the truth when it is made plain, and do not seek to construct arguments against it, will be preserved from the dangers of self deception. God will not force us to believe anything against our will. However, His word clearly describes what will happen to those who still choose to believe, contrary to what He has plainly said: "Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved…God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thessalonians 2: 10,11.
It doesn't get any more plain than "this generation", "you will see", "some here will not taste death", "It is the last hour", "in these last days", etc.
You have been told, now what will you do.
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
I am curious in the preterist thinking, why did Christ leave out ".. and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified." (Is 61:2-3) from Luke 4:18-19?
To: Isaiah_61
Only the elect of the Jews, and the saved Gentiles (Romans 9) need apply. Paul clearly showed the transition of a physical Jewish nation to a spiritual Israel. Gods promises NEVER went to the wicked and it is the wicked who reject Christ.
The time of vengeance (Matt23) was the "great tribulation" in which He destroyed the oppressors of the Christians (JEWS and their old covenant "law" symbolized by the temple) by use of the Romans.
Funny how Christianity flurished after 70 AD.
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Invite every one of the gentleman on your list to a venue and I'll bring along a leper who wants to be cured,there we can test 'say to this mountain move and it will move' or 'even greater things than these shall you do' in fact fill the whole stadium with the learned men of every religion in the world and your leper will still be a leper,but if hes lucky someday somewhere he may well meet someone who does cure him ,someone who God has tested and tried and delegated the requisite authority to,the reason this is so, is it is as it always was true miracle workers are bad for business and not to keen to reveal themselves because if theres one thing the church does well is isolate,ruin the reputation of or even kill anyone with real authority.
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Your original posting of "Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22)." seems to contradict what you just stated.
To: Governor StrangeReno
I am not sure if I should be encouraged and take better care of my "pearl", but I like your story and agree whole heartedly.
To: Isaiah_61
Full fulfillment in Gods eyes is to save everyone whom HE purposed to save. His elect.
Are you telling me that because Korah was killed as wicked, God did not fulfill His promise to deliver the Jews into the promised land?
Or what about all the others who were promised the land but died during the 40 years of wandering?
Was this "partial?"
NO! And I do not believe you think it is. You are looking for anything to squabble with, denying Gods constant judgment on the wicked. He has always excluded the wicked from promises. The JEWS who rejected Christ were wicked.
Because of their rejection, we are all able to accept salvation:
Matthew 21:43 - Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Hebrews 11 has numberous statements about various Jews not receiving the promise. Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
My earlier reference to Isaiah was that in Luke, Christ stated (4:18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. yet that is only part of the Isaiah passage. Yet the complete fulfillment according to you is well after. This seems to be a partial fulfillment by your own statements.
To: Isaiah_61
Partial fulfillment?
I get what your saying but Christ had two parts to fulfill, the 70 weeks along with the Daniel 12 prophecy. Isaiah puts them in the same breath, where as Daniel speaks of two events to fulfill all that is written.
Daniel 9 (70 weeks, messianic) and Daniel 12 (time of vengeance, shattering of the holy people).
Christs mission at that time was the messianic fulfillment of that Isaiah passage but the second part (vengeance) Christ declared He would fulfill at his second coming.
Partial fulfillment, in the article (which I did not write) is referring to "partial-preterist" vs "full-preterist". Some claim that even though Christ declared the "time of vengeance" is when "all things written will be fulfilled" in Luke 21, that not all was fulfilled during the time of vengeance.
This "partial-preterist" view contradicts Luke 21 and Daniel 12.
Christ clearly showed 2 PARTS but all was to be fulfilled in the time of vengeance (Luke 21:22, Matt 23).
So in the context of 2002 AD, partial doesn't cut it.
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