Posted on 11/23/2001 2:58:00 PM PST by Smogger
An eloquent and well-reasoned reply.
Neither am I interested in hastening the hardening of chains on my wrists and ankles. Unlike our forebears in WWI and WWII, we have a well-earned cynicism toward the Fed. I'm sometimes told that I'm "ate up with it".
However.............we have a bit of a secret weapon on our side this time: the basic American aversion to inconvenience and the Almighty Dollar. Please allow me to explain...
We all put up with tanks and APC's in airports (I know I know..........fat load of good they'll do against some individual maniacs carrying suitcases..........), obscenely long lines in those same airports, etc., etc. while we're at war with an enemy who's obviously hell-bent on destroying our country and our culture.
BUT.................
........as soon as it looks like we've won this thing (when will that be? when the media say so...........sad, but true.....), then John and Janie Citizen will NOT put up with these long lines, the uniformed guys in cammo and toting M-16's, etc., in their airports. They'll stop travelling; the airlines will suffer even more / once again, and there will be hearings, talking heads on TV questioning the need for this continued "military presence", etc. The airlines will win. The military will be gone, security will (hopefully) be improved by a combination of better technology and better-trained security personnel, and the public will tire of this war-time footing and scream for "normalcy".
One thing you can count on with Americans: Interfere with their "convenience", and you'll have Hell to pay when you can no longer justify inconveniencing them.
German Accent: "Papers Please!
Confused Voice: "For What?"
German Accent: "If ze haz done nuzzing wrong, ze haz nuzzing to fear!"
The framers attempted to protect us from this for a reason.
You make a comment I do not understand. The framers attempted to protect us from this for a reason.
Several people have alluded to the proposition that they think this law is a violation of the 4th Amendment. I respectfully disagree....
and I have asked each of them why they think so. Do I read your comment correctly? You think this law is a violation of the 4th Amendment?
If so, can you tell me why?
To: exodus
"When did it become a crime
to question the actions of our politicians?"
It didn't.
In fact, if / when you stop,
you become just another drooling,
CNN-worshipping a**hole.
Just understand that there may be other ways
of looking at the actions of a President......
a decent, Christian man..... at war..."
# 86 by RightOnline
************
RightOnline, we are not at war.
Our leaders told us that we were at "war with terrorists."
But when Congressman Bob Barr asked for a Declaration of War,
as required by the Constitution,
the House as a whole refused to vote the question.
I don't care what kind of man Bush is.
He's asking me to give up my freedom for an un-declared war
against an enemy that CAN NOT be conquered.
However, please allow me to try to make a distinction about invasion procedures and things readily available in public.
For example, you cannot be required to provide a blood sample without probable cause or a search warrant. However, when you walk down the street with your face uncovered for all to see you do not have an expectation of privacy and anyone may take your picture, including law enforcement officials. Now let me make the comparison to this law. No one can come into your house and demand an accounting of your cash without probable cause or a search warrant. However, when you walk into a public retail store and hand over $10,000 in cash you are affirmatively giving up privacy of that transaction. You may not agree with that last sentence but in this case I believe the public good of tracking and catching criminals and terrorists outweighs the private desire to pay in cash when other means are so readily available. Thank you for considering my position.
They seem to forget those agencies 'accidently' kill people, withold and misplace evidence, put innocent people in jail for years and destroy lives.
To: exodus
But when you buy a boat, a car or house you create a public record.
How much less private can you get?
You can bet the airlines are now scanning passenger transaction patterns looking for anything suspicious.
Is this wrong? Is it wrong if the govt requires that airlines do this?
Is it public safety or an invasion of privacy?
The 4th Amendment (which is WHAT YOU QUOTED) does not promise anonymity.
# 105 by Dialup Llama
************
Your statement is correct,
but the assumption derived from the statement is wrong.
Yes, a purchase creates a public record.
It does not, however, create a public need
for you to justify your right to make the purchase.
Being seen in public with your girlfriend
does not create a need to air
all the details of your relationship.
It's none of your business.
I do have one question, however. If, under this extended law someone is found to be laundering money, but they are no threat to national security, will they still be indicted? Or is this law restricted to terrorist crimes only?
I haven't thought about this one particular provision of the law with respect to the 4th Amendment b/c I don't care to delve into detailed arguments of law - I prefer leaving that to the lawyers and Constitutional scholars to endlessly debate.
I prefer to simply look at things from a practical impact standpoint. How it effects me or others. First, it is another heavy chain around the neck of the small business owner, many of whom are put out of business by overburdensome government regulations already. This law requres the business owner, once again, to work on behalf of the government without compensation.
Second, I am not overly familiar with this provision. Would it require someone making ten $1000 purchases with cash to now have to leave a name and address with the business? What about someone making 20 $500 purchases? Will we be free to use cash at all anymore, or is the anonymity of cash too inconvenient for the government to keep tabs on all of us? Maybe we should make it easier and just requre everybody to use government issue credit cards only. After all, if we are doing nothing illegal, we have nothing to fear, right?
This provision notwithstanding, it is the cumulative effect of the entire act that bothers me. More and bigger government. More and bigger regulations. Less and less freedom. These tools will not be limited to stopping terrorists. They are simply more devices by which the government will herd the flock.
Well I wonder what Nacer Mustafa and his father Fathi Mustafa would have to say about that.
Charges against 2 U.S. citizens dropped after lab tests determine documents not doctored
By Associated Press, 11/21/2001 14:05
LABELLE, Fla. (AP) A man of Palestinian descent was released after being jailed for more than two months when federal authorities dropped charges that he altered his U.S. passport by laminating it.
Nacer Mustafa, 24, had been jailed as a national security risk by federal officials in Texas. The same charges against his father, Fathi Mustafa, 66, also were dropped Tuesday. The elder Mustafa was free on bond and ordered to wear a computerized monitoring device.
A laboratory analysis of the passports determined neither was altered.
''The laboratory analysis showed that the laminate had most likely split and was not an additional laminate,'' Assistant U.S. Attorney Jay Hileman wrote in his motion to dismiss the charges.
''You could say this was a miscarriage of justice,'' said Dan Gerson, a Houston attorney representing the family. ''There's a potential here ... to sue the government.''
The Mustafas were arrested Sept. 14 at Bush Intercontinental Airport in Houston as they entered the United States from Mexico. A federal agent said there was a second layer of lamination on their passports.
Both men are U.S. citizens and run a small department store in LaBelle, east of Fort Myers.
Fathi Mustafa said Tuesday he was glad his and his son's names have been cleared, and that he will soon be reunited with his son. Nacer Mustafa was expected to return home this week.
Fathi Mustafa has spent the last six weeks wearing a computerized ankle bracelet. The Mustafas said they must wait for paperwork from Texas to be sent to the federal courthouse in Fort Myers before the monitoring device can be removed.
''I have been living this hell,'' he said. Fathi Mustafa, a citizen for nearly 40 years, said doesn't understand the treatment by the United States. ''I've known from the first time that nothing was wrong with our passports,'' he said. ''But we don't want to argue right now, we are just thanking God he's out of jail.''
Look at the results of 9/11 and tell me this.
We ARE at war, exodus, whether you choose to accept it or not. Unlike some, I don't need an act of Congress to tell me that there are those who choose to attack us, destroy us, kill us. If that's what you're waiting for...........a "formal" declaration of war...........then you're waiting in the ticket line once the game has already started and the stadium's full.
"...against an enemy that CAN NOT be conquered."
Who said anything about "conquering" anybody?? This isn't about "conquering", exodus. It's about kicking their sorry asses. It's about justice; it's about revenge; it's about victory............it's about winning. There IS a difference.
....and don't pretend to tell me that we can't "win" this. That's patent nonsense.
You don't seem to understand nor in any way acknowledge the above. You'd better, because this is the reality in which we find ourselves........you included.
...and this will be over when.......what?
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