JOSEPH SOBRAN: "Weighing the Costs"

Sobran.com ^ | October 23, 2001 | Joseph Sobran

[tpaine]

"but his cult following of several dozen libertarian worshipers fall at his feet and light candles with every new article."

And fanatical followers of the cult of anti-libertarian haters, like you, always show up to spew their lies.

- How bout posting an example, from this thread, quoting someone as they 'worship'? Two bits you lack the stones.

[tpaine]

Why not refute his facts? Can you?

[madrussian]

Israel is a democracy since 1948, which has religious parties among other parties and is a nation-state with a minority with full set of civil rights; more than some club members can say for themselves. If it were in the middle of Europe somewhere, those acomplishemnts would be unremarkable; being as it is surrounded by barabric states, it qualifies as a flagship.

Israel is an ethnocentric theocratic state by the Jews for the Jews. If their achievments are remarkable as compared with their neighbors that doesn't make them a "flagship" of anything, and whatever civility they might have they have learned in the West.

The Old Testament is the foundation of the Christian culture just as it is the Jewish scripture.

The Old Testament is a book that's quite different from the New Testament and is only included in Christian belief for continuity purposes. The muslims claim religious kin with Judaism and Christianity too, so Israel then must be a "flagship" of the muslim world too.

There have never been any Judeo-Christian culture before this PC term has been invented in the US to make this artificial connection between the Jews and Christians, that has never existed in Europe. The desert Jewish tribe have more in common with their brothers Arabs than with the Europeans: tribal loyalty, Middle Eastern cunning and an eye-for-an-eye religion.

[madrussian]

That will come as a surprise to the billions of people who take it for granted that "Judaeo-Christian" civilization means... well, Judaeo-Christian.

A Judeo-Christian civilization is an oxymoron. Make it a Judeo-Christian-Islamic if you want to emphasize the common origin of the religions.

[B4Ranch]

ping

[GROUCHOTWO]

Excellent post!

[annalex]

circle, jerk, answer

I was in a hurry to leave, but why is it a bad answer? It is normal to expect the criminals to be controlled by their country of residence. Osama's bombers are criminals. In a sane environment they'd be in a Saudi, Sudanese, Afghan, or wherever they happen to reside at the moment jail. So, sanity will be restored when the governments out there start to catch mice as they're supposed to.

[annalex]

Those who started a guerilla war on the Jews were expelled from the Jewish state. Those who didn't became Israeli citizens. That shows that the Jewish "terrorization" of the Arabs was selective, and therefore, provoked by them.

What civil rights do the Israeli citizens of Arab descent not have?

[sobieski]

Israel needs to do what we say, or pay the consequences. As W says, you are with us or with the terrorists. If Israel doesn't smarten up, there goes our protection, and then we'll see how strong they actually are.

[annalex]

Israel is not a democracy

Israel has competitive elections in which all citizens participate; it has undergone radical changes in its policy as a result of elections. Arab parties, including those supportive of the Intifada, are represented in the Knesset. Punks throwing rocks are not news in any democracy.

Judaism's roots are Hellenistic and are part of the world of the 'Magi'.

Fascinating; tell us more. My point (#12) is very simple: the Old Testament in every Christian home is a sacred book of Judaism.

[Architect]

Those who started a guerilla war on the Jews were expelled from the Jewish state. Those who didn't became Israeli citizens. That shows that the Jewish "terrorization" of the Arabs was selective, and therefore, provoked by them.

Wrong. Those who did not flee from Israeli terrorism (or who were not subjected to it) became Israeli citizens. Those who did flee became landless refugees. BTW, the official Israeli story is that they left their homes due to pleas from Arabs governments. This is generally accepted as false but you'll note that even the Zionist propagandists don't claim they were terrorists.

What civil rights do the Israeli citizens of Arab descent not have?

To buy land and live where they want.

[annalex]

I am tempted to put your lines in italics and my lines in straight and just leave it at that. Out of sheer goodwill, let me try again:

All countries of Europe are nation states, excepting Russia, and perhaps Britain. The fact that Israel is a Jewish state for the Jews doesn't set it apart from other Western nations, and cannot be used to set it apart from the Western civilization. Characteristically for the West, the ethnic minorities of citizens in Israel enjoy the same civil rights.

The Old Testament is the Jewish Torah. The Koran, on the other hand, is not an integral part of any other religion except Islam, nor does Islam include any scripture that is common to another religion.

If you think that the Old Testament is included in the Christian Scripture for "continuity purposes", then your belief sets you far afield from the dominant Western religious tradition.

[tpaine]

Because you just repeated your statement here:

I agree with you, by and large. I don't plan to change the people, I meant "change the government".

And that's part of the old ways, the old thinking, that doesn't work.

We should make it clear that we don't care what kind of government or beliefs they have.

We have to convince them, [and in particular their leaders] that they will die if they kill us. This is not being done, and probably hasn't been done, since our indian wars of the 1800's.

HOW it can be done, on a world wide scale, is a damn good question. Any ideas?

- #42 -

[Architect]

Any ideas?

1. Stop meddling in other peoples' affairs overseas
2. Allow citizens to defend themselves at home.

[annalex]

In 1948 there was a war for territory that didn't have a clear aggressor. When the hostilites ceased, some Arabs wound up in exile and others wound up Israeli citizens. Those who ended up in exile became terrorists, or a breeding ground for them. At this point in time they are criminals who forfeited any civil rights they might have been entitled to.

Explain how an Arab Isreali is supposed to buy real property.

[annalex]

Aren't we saying the same thing? Intimidating the leaders is equivalent to installing a new government by force, which is my proposal.

I'll respond in the morning.