JOSEPH SOBRAN: "Weighing the Costs"

Sobran.com ^ | October 23, 2001 | Joseph Sobran

[AshleyMontagu]

Where in this article does he say we should cut Israel loose? His point seems to be that we can't debate our Israeli policy in this country. Or how much influence their lobbyists have on our policies. If Iraqis were constantly trying to influence our government's policy in the MidEast would that fact be off limits for debate? If Afghanis were wining and dining (or threatening and extorting) our representatives in order to gain money for their country would that be a taboo subject to discuss?

[sinkspur]

If we had not been supporting Israel, we would not have been attacked on September 11, and that is pretty much what Osama himself told us in that taped interview that went on the air a few weeks ago.

If you believe this, then you're the kind of sap bin Laden appeals to.

Any old excuse will do for a hater who wants to rid the world of the object of his hatred.

Why isn't bin Laden attacking Israel directly?

[AshleyMontagu]

Sobran ought to know that.

Now that's an understatement. Sobran's career was ruined by his being an 'anti-Semite' (which he aptly defines as 'one whom Jews hate').

[AshleyMontagu]

Under the present circumstances our relationship with Israel is pretty much taboo yes.

Why? Also, under what circumstances would this taboo be lifted? And why was the taboo in place before the present circumstances even occurred?

[madrussian]

1. The only country in the Middle East that is run democratically.

An ethnocentric theocratic country that has little to do with the West. Better than its Arab neighbors, but doesn't make the cut to be admitted in the club, let alone be called a "flagship".

2. Judaism, as a religion based on the Old Testament, is at the foundation of the Western culture.

The West is defined through its Christian culture. Whether Christianity has its origin in the ancient Palestine, is hardly relevant. The civic Western society is built upon Rome and Greece.

[Askel5]

each country for its own reasons and it its own way, are flagships of the western civilization

You're going to have to be very specific with me regarding the parallels between our Declaration and Constitution and the confection of Israel by globalists at the behest of Soviet-sponsored terrorists.

[Askel5]

as if seeking the unvarnished truth amounted to declaring war on Israel

Too true ... particularly around here.

With the exception of a very civilized and enjoyable conversation on my The Evil Purposed ... and Perpetuated ... by Political Murder thread, only ONE poster has offered to discuss with me the question -- well the SINGLE question, really -- I've been asking repeatedly for months now.

I think the trouble is that too many fail to distinguish between criticism of Israel (the state) and Judaism (the faith) though to any rational mind, it seems readily apparent the two are strikingly separate and distinct.

I also think that many fail to recognize (since confection of the State of Israel and conferring of their privileged status) the fact that it's the Jews who've served as model for the USE of women, blacks, gays, Hispanics and any other sub-category of human being on which politicians and so-called statesmen which to capitalize and with which -- in deference always to the "special status" of this or that group -- they cloak their special interests and undermining of essential human equality by balkanizing us based on race, faith, sex, sexual orientation and whatever other purely material accidents they can base this or that special privilege, interminable debt or averted eyes.

[x]

Probably the US will seek to disengage itself more from the Middle East once this war is over. Israel is strong enough to fend for itself, and may even benefit from our benign neglect. It's to be hoped that if we do things right the momentum in the region will be towards secularism and peaceful resolution of conflicts. Even if it isn't we will be very disgusted with the region when this ends and this disgust will attach itself to all the players in the area, and with good reason. If bin Laden "wins," though, we will be tied up with this trouble for a long time to come.

Disengagement, though, is very hard for a superpower to do. Whatever goes wrong in the region we will be blamed for.

Sobran seems to be on auto-pilot these days, just repeating what he's already said without adding anything new. A bit like some Democratic columnists (Richard Reeves, etc.) during the Clinton years.

[annalex]

Israel is a democracy since 1948, which has religious parties among other parties and is a nation-state with a minority with full set of civil rights; more than some club members can say for themselves. If it were in the middle of Europe somewhere, those acomplishemnts would be unremarkable; being as it is surrounded by barabric states, it qualifies as a flagship.

The Old Testament is the foundation of the Christian culture just as it is the Jewish scripture.

[annalex]

I did not say there is a parallel. The commonality is that we represent the western culture by virtue of being its most powerful nation, and Israel -- by virtue of being its beachhead.

[tpaine]

Why do you feel the need to reform the government of people living half way around the world?

I don't feel such need in general. When the Western civilization to which I belong is attacked by bastards I would like the government where the bastards live to punish them as criminals and preempt future attacks; when a cooperation from those governments is not forthcoming, I wish to change them.

We will never 'change' them. - We can only punish them, until they agree not to support terrorism.
The problem is making 'them' [millons of them], realise we are dead serious, and that we will not stop, without tiggering WWIII.

We are NOT doing that, convincing 'them', to date, imo. -- We haven't yet found a way to do it.
And the old ways sure in hell don't work.

[Publius6961]

Even by the standards of political propaganda, which assumes the stupidity of the masses, this is absurd. If it were true, the Israelis would end their ties to the United States in a flash.

I can't believe I used to think this guy was thoughtful and rational.
He didn't figure out that the big devil-little devil relationship refers to freedoms the Muslims see as "unrestricted" in a free society, a quality Israel and the U.S. share.
I see nothing whatsoever absurd about the observation.

Why this should this concept be so hard to see?

[annalex]

I agree with you, by and large. I don't plan to change the people, I meant "change the government".

[Publius6961]

Sobran is right.

You mean you agree with Sobran or his article.
Not the same thing.

[Architect]

Israel is a democracy since 1948

Bah! Israel is a state founded on racism whose form of democracy is roughly equivalent to that of apartheid South Africa. Any Jew in the world can become a citizen simply by moving there. But 700,000 Arabs were expelled in 1948 and their 2,000,000 descendents are still denied the right to return to their homes and to vote in the land of their forefathers. Similarly the millions of Arabs on the West Bank are denied the vote but the 200,000 colonists who have invaded their land are allowed.

Flagship, my sweet petunia. Israel is a socialist hole which has consistently ruined the best chances for liberal democracy in the Middle East, starting with Lebanon.

[Publius6961]

Why do you feel the need to reform the government of people living half way around the world?

I am truly puzzled by this question, since I could not see where annalex made any such suggestion; however it is an excellent question.
Few care what people living half way round the world do internally.
When they export Muslim Mass Murder, we would have to be suicidal not to take notice, or to care, or to do something about it.