JOSEPH SOBRAN: "Weighing the Costs"

Sobran.com ^ | October 23, 2001 | Joseph Sobran

[annalex]

refuse to answer my question about citizenship

#106 was about whether the Arab Israelis can buy (or as we learned, more typically, lease) real estate in the same way the Jewish Israelis can, and it showed that they can. You refusal to acknowledge that exasperated me. As to how the refugees lost their citizenship, I thought that #131 answers it. Most never had citizenship because they fought Israel before the state of Israel was created. Subsequently, Israel expelled some Arab convicts to Lebanon (a few busloads); those of them who were citizens were probably stripped of their citizenship by the same act. That's all I know; if you know more, tell us.

Israel attacked Egypt

Israel was facing a coalition of Arab states that amassed overwhelming military strength along its borders. It was successful in attacking them one by one, yes. Tactically, it could not afford to wait for them to attack first. It also annexed the territories that made it vulnerable. That is what "preemptive" means.

Israel has never once made a land-for-peace to either Syria or Jordan/Palestine.

As far as I know, Israel has no dispute with Jordan, and it allowed the creation of the Palestinian Authority, in the spirit of Land For Peace policy. There was some talk of ceding back the Golans, but I suppose the continuing Syrian occupation of Lebanon makes the negotiations difficult.

For months before the partition, Israeli guerrilla groups engaged in ethnic cleansing of Arab lands

The Jews were a minority there at the time, so the term "ethnic cleansing" wouldn't apply. I could imagine easily that the guerilla hostilities were mutual, and a good deal of terrorism on that stage was directed against the British.

[annalex]

Nationalism is not something that would separate a culture from the Western tradition, which is carried by nation-states. As I pointed out several times, e.g. in #106, the Arab Israeli citizens enjoy full civil rights so the comparisons with Nazi Germany or Tsarist Russia do not apply.

Your statements, just like anyone else's stand or fall based on the argumentation you present. Yours was faulty so far.

[sobieski]

Other Muslim/Western conflicts include: Bosnians vs Croatians/Serbs Turks vs Cypriots Turks vs Greeks

[mercy]

Oh, this is all so silly. The REAL problem is religion in general. But especially Judaism and Christianity. As soon as the enlightened people of the world can stamp out these pesky, dusty old ideas the planet will be a better place. The silly Christians actually take the Bible literally and believe it is actually the Word of God. They take it as Gospel when The Lord says the Jews are His chosen and that any who turn against them have turned against HIM.

THIS is what must be changed. Christianity just has to go. Then those naughty Jews will just wither away without the Christians support. What a wonderful world we will someday have when the masses no longer believe in these religious fairy tales.

Then we can get about the business of building the scientific man. The scientific consumer man. The pursuit of toys shall reconfigure the human race and bring about the utopia these religious fools have denied us so long.

[stryker]

Pardon me if I am wrong, but didn't Jordan and Syria take the Palestinian's land in the Israeli war of liberation and then refuse to give it back? Shouldn't the Palestinian's beef be with those countries and not with Israel? Or have I read the wrong history books?

[CWOJackson]

So what color is your Taliban cheerleader uniforms? Yellow like the stripe up your back?

[madrussian]

Nationalism is not the word you are looking for. You are looking for the words "nazis", "pogrom", "apartheid" etc. The words that usually come up when people hear "Germany for the Germans!" and similar slogans.

[annalex]

Minority citizens in Israel have the same rigths as majority citizens, so don't tell me slogans.

[Architect]

This thread is about Israel, not Afghanistan. The only yellow thing here is the filth which dribbles from your mouth.

[annalex]

Yes, thanks.

[Architect]

The Jews were a minority there at the time, so the term "ethnic cleansing" wouldn't apply.

What would you prefer to call it? Racial purification?

[Architect]

Well, it's obviously true that land which was to have gone to the Palestinians was partitioned between the Israeli, Egyptian and Jordanian nations. Since then, both Egypt and Jordan have renounced any claim to the parts of Palestine that they occupied. The Isrealis, in contrast, have incorporated their piece into their national territory. What's more, they continue to annex more and more land, a process which has accelerated significantly in the last ten years.

Perhaps more important than the effect on Palestinians as whole, is what was done to individuals. The Isrealis stole land outright, something that neither the Egyptians nor the Jordanians ever did.

[annalex]

I'd call it a war for territory in absence of an established government. Some won, others lost.

[Architect]

Are you a lawyer?

[annalex]

Looking for one? I am a software engineer.

[Architect]

No, I'm not looking for a lawyer. But you have a natural talent. You should consider it.