Pentagon halts the advance of fighting women

The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 11/02/2001 | Toby Harnden

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

The real facts:

Good article and real facts and regulations about the women we have in combat during this war.

[Lancey Howard]

Wow. I guess there's a difference between Democrats and Republicans, children and adults, politically correct and correct....
Thank God for George W. Bush and the American people that were smart enough to elect him.
Daddy's little girl won't be coming home in a body bag under this President.

[Pdljpr]

I am a true believer that War is Hell. I can't imagine any woman who would have a desire to place herself into the horror that combat is. Being taken prisoner is a real possiblity. Being raped and sexually abused as a man or woman prisoner is also a real possiblity. Sometimes being a POW lasts several years. My question is, how many of the babies born in captivity will have their rights or wishes known, as they are used and abused (some to their deaths) to make their mothers talk? Women in combat = very bad idea!

[Old Student]

For starters, most of the time only about 1/10th of our military is involved in (or potentially involved in) front line combat. OKay? We had 58,000 KIA in Vietnam over a ten-year period. We lose more than that every year to highway accidents--and many of them are women (yet we still let women ride in cars and drive them.) We had 1.6-2.1 million people under arms during the Vietnam era and afterwards. Figure the percentage and see how many casualties we had, as a percentage. A fair number--not a huge number, but a fair number--were women. Death comes one to a customer, and everybody dies. Can't win, can't break even, can't get out of the game.

Anybody who can pass the physical can fight. Not necessarily "will" fight, but can. After they've been in service for a few years, and depending on branch of service, they can try out for Rangers, Seals, Green Berets, Delta Force, even astronauts. This is TRUE, this is FACT, not my opinion.

About 70% of the people who try out for special forces flunk out. Even the folks who don't go out for special forces MAY have to fight. Even in the Air Force. My folks all had to go through Airbase Ground Defense Training. We were supposed to be protected by the Army, but...if they make it through that perimeter, we're all that's left. The women pulled their weight in the training and in real world. They dug foxholes, they sat there in the foxholes with guns, and they shot at the bad guys. Fortunately, we never did THAT real-world, just MILES (we called it "laser tag.") One of the guys I went through MOB school with in Germany was a former Army combat engineer. We learned lots of neat stuff about foxholes from him. The young ladies were paying close attention too. I would not care to put them on the front line unless they can pass the same physical testing a grunt goes through. Although I spent 24 years in the service, I wouldn't pass that physical.

The Air Force manages just fine with female pilots, crew chiefs, satellite communications technicians, wiredogs--you name it, we got'em, and they do their jobs. They do them in combat if they have to, and it doesn't diminish readiness at all. My unit ran the air war during the Persian Gulf War. Female NCO's directed the establishment of the "Bubble" where the controllers sat and told the pilots where to go and whom to shoot when they got there. There were women in the Bubble. Women scope-dopes, women controllers, even pilots. The Chief of Maintenance for a time there was female. Everybody did their freakin' JOBS. The "girls" did all the same things the guys did and there wasn't any friction about it (except with the hard-nosed Saudis sometimes, and to hell with them--they couldn't understand why any man would jump up and do what a woman told them to do. It's called discipline, BTW.)

When I was an aircraft mechanic, before I destroyed my knees, we had this huge bronze fuel nozzle with four-inch hose--a hundred feet of it--to refuel the airplanes. Girls could only get into the career field IF they could pick up the nozzle and lift it up 6' off the ground. In other words, they had to be physically qualified to do the job. Men who couldn't lift it STILL couldn't get out of the field. In other words, they could be physically unfit and were left in place. The female crew chiefs I worked with tended to have HIGHER OR rates than most of the male crew chiefs. They also lifted 200 pound toolboxes and they climbed up on top of airplanes and fixed them just like the guys. Takes a special kind of tough, and plenty of ladies have it.

It's unpatriotic to dis them. Take them one at a time. If they can do the job, let 'em do it. If they can't, there's other ways for them to serve. There's GUYS OUT THERE WHO CANNOT DO IT EITHER. I don't want to have to go into a combat situation as a guy with bum knees. It doesn't matter how well I can shoot--and I can put your eyes out at 50 yards with a .45 auto. I'm still not qualified for that kind of work. But when you're sending out airplanes to find a target, you want me or one of the women trained to do what I can do with my satellite dish keeping you in touch with the chain of command 24/7.

Any guy who is so stupid that he goes out and gets himself shot up because the "comrade in arms" went and got herself shot, would have done the same thing for one of his guy buddies. By the way, we train them to do that. It's called "self aid and buddy care." We try to teach them not to get shot but sometimes it doesn't work. It has always been military policy that we pick up our people, wounded, dead, even if they've been lying there for 50 years...male, or female.

[usmcobra]

Ahhh one of my favorite arguments!
I spent eleven years in the Corps,
and I always point out the same problem with women in the military,
The Women that serve for the most part are not the problem,
The real problem is the way men treat women!
Yeah you heard me right!
Sexual harassment, coodling, "special favors"
I have pretty much seen it all.
When I was a sargeant with a number of WM's in my charge,
I quickly realized that the only way to treat them and to train them was as Marines.
In the begining, they took offence to it, and thought I was just being a mean S.O.B.
but you know what? Slowly as they began to notice that I treated them no different from any other Marine
That I asked from them the same things I asked of the rest of the male Marines in my charge.
and that I wouldn't brook none of the sexual stupidity from my male marines either
I tell you that if you treat them as soldiers, sailors, airman, or Marines
and expect them to carry themselves as such they will.
Take a good look at some of the Carrier pics we are getting from the navy
You will see women bombing up F-18 and such wearing the red shirt of ordinancemen
and lifting those bombs onto their racks.
and you are going to tell me that women can't handle the loads a man can!
you don't have to believe they can do it
They have to believe it
and they do!

[VaBthang4]

...and that is supposed to mean what exactly?

Does that diatribe somehow change the reality that women do not posses the physical emotional or mental attributes required for armed physical combat?

I'll jump ahead and help you out.....no.

After you aquire something comparable to a

Department of Defense Distinguished Service Medal,
Marine Good Conduct Medal,
Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal,
A NDSM,
SW Asia Service Medal,
Combat Action Ribbon,
Saudi Arabian Medal for the Liberation of Kuwait,
Kuwaiti Liberation of Kuwait Medal,
Third award expert rifle and third award expert pistol on your mantle....please dont preach....or "cut & paste" to be exact.

:o)

[walden]

"If a woman wants to fight, let her fight. Land of the Free, Home of the Brave."

It's amazing to hear someone else express that. My attitude has always been that I wouldn't be willing to send a child of mine to fight a war that I wasn't willing to fight myself, and that I wouldn't be willing to send a son to fight a war that I wasn't willing to send a daughter to fight. As it is, I'm too old for this war at age 42 and my daughters are too young, at 15 and 16 (I have no sons). But, I so much want to help. I was thinking about talking to the recruiters-- if nothing else, I could handle a desk job and free up a younger person, but a friend told me that the desk jobs have mostly been outsourced to civilians, so there is really nothing I can do.

But, if the time comes that one or both of my daughters chooses (or is drafted) to serve-- I will be proud beyond words. Character and love of country are not boundared by gender.

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

"But, if the time comes that one or both of my daughters chooses (or is drafted)"

Fear not the draft for your daughters.
Selective Service Registration is the law.
A man who fails to register may, if prosecuted and convicted, face a fine of up to $250,000
and/or a prison term of up to five years.
The law does not apply to women, never has.

[Unbeliever]

Saying women shouldn't fight is like saying that women shouldnt learn, or show thier face. What are we, the Taliban? If a woman wants to fight, let her fight. Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. What if a free woman wants to be brave and fight for her country? Bad move by the Bush Administration IMHO.

Uh, they really REALLY miss you at democrats.com.

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

Thank you for your service to our country Marine


Stop in and find out new ways to help support our military!

[Unbeliever]

Orion78 member since May 19th, 2001

Why am I not surprised?

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

"As it is, I'm too old for this war at age 42"

Well while it is NOT being in the military this is what I'll be doing.
The Navy and Oregon National Guard said 53 is too old to be in.
I'll be in Coast Guard Auxiliary District 13, Division 5 Flotilla 51 COOS BAY, OREGON

How YOU can assist/support HOMELAND DEFENSE

[Unbeliever]

Your trying to change the direction of this to the draft, and its not going to work. If a woman wants to fight. She should be able to fight. Your suggesting it would be unfair to draft men and not women. I'm saying its unfair to say a woman is equal but forbid her from fight if she chose to do so.

Ok, so men should be able to opt out if they wish, right?

[Orion78]

"Orion78 member since May 19th, 2001
Why am I not surprised?"

Excellent arguement! I must be wrong because I haven't been a member of FreeRepublic as long as you have.

[Orion78]

"Ok, so men should be able to opt out if they wish, right?"

This discussion is not about the draft.

[walden]

"Some of us respect women. Do you want to see any American woman in the hands of the Taliban, as a POW in a Vietnam or in the hands of Saddam? Think."

I think you might be as old, if not older than I am, so we probably can talk about this. I am a woman. I don't want to see ANY American as a POW, but it happens in war. However, this enemy is not the Germans, not the Vietnamese, not even Saddam Hussein. This enemy will torture and then kill all captured Americans, videotape the whole thing, then publish the videotape on the internet. The *ssholes in Chechneya (sp?) have done exactly that. I desperately hope that our troops have been provided with suicide poison pills, because I don't think capture is an option in this war.

This enemy is unspeakably horrible, but I can't see that it would be worse for women than for men. If I were 20 years younger I would have already signed up, and taken whatever position I was allowed to do the most damage possible to the enemy. This is a war we must win.

[ChemistCat]

If USMCOBRA thinks the women in his command have the capacity to fight, that settles the argument for me.

My husband has been in the company of liberals all evening, but I assure you, he has 24 years of experience in the military and all of his experience (not just some of his experience) says you're wrong when you say women are mentally and emotionally unable to fight. The physical argument can be made case-by-case; some can, some cannot. I argue from a more metaphysical position that women ought not to have to, but we're surrounded by weakling men who won't defend their families...so.

[Unbeliever]

This discussion is not about the draft.

Draft AND combat. If you're going to bleat about equality, what the hell kind of "equality" allows women ANY choice that men are not allowed?
This may come as a surprise to you, but, real life situations frequently don't respond well to your assinine social engineering fantasies.

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

FReeper Ideas needed for Supporting Our Troops On The Homefront

[usmcobra]

Care to check out my registration date!
I also happen to believe that if a woman wishes to fight for her country,
she should be allow to.
but my reasoning is based on experiance,
not what my gut tells me!
what is the difference from women in the military and women in the Police force
If anything a woman wearing a badgeis in a more dangerous line of work.