Posted on 09/27/2001 8:38:14 AM PDT by Voronin
And bluester is always complaining about that fact about Serbia helping its ethnic kin elsewhere. Bluester's the hypocrite.
And don't you read the article's excerpts? Some of these Muslims turned against Croats and were killed in a shootout. It seems like already in September 1992 that the arms route from Slovenia was being shut down because relations between Muslims and Croats were souring.
The Muslim-Croat war is said to run from 1993-1994, but perhaps it started in late '92 in some places.
And besides, Domdom, why was Slovenia interfering were it did not have any ethnic Slovenes in danger?
That's because your mind had been baffled by the hypocrisy which is required to live in or accept the Fascist, murderous state of Croatia!
Sieg Heil, (ZaDomSpremni is WWII Croatian Nazi salute),
What baffles mind is that unrepented Croatian and Bosnian Nazis managed to repeat WWII attrocities, this time not with Hitler, but with democratic countries on your side. what baffles mind is that Balkan scum managed to infect entire democratic world , backlash will be felt in the years to come.
Let me get this straight. Muslims living and training in the USA for 2 years slammed 3 jetliners into the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon and a fourth almost went into the White House? Death toll at around 7,000? It can't be true!
How stupid do you think we are?
I think you are very stupid. Understandable, the Croats were stupid enough to ally themselves with Adolph Hitler. The Croatian nation is not known for its intelligence.
According to your logic, I could claim Nato never bombed Serbia. Oh no! It was the Serbs who were bombing themselves.
P.S. How could the muslims shelled themselves if they didn't even have artilery until the end of the war? Answer me that!
The article answers all.
Survivors and witnesses said they heard no characteristic whistle of an approaching missile; this later led to suggestions that a bomb had been placed under a stall. The suggestion that the Muslims shelled their own people began to be discussed by diplomats, politicians and a few journalists
Let me understand this: You think muslims bombed themselves, then you mention something about WTC that has nothing at all to do with anything, then you call me stupid?
By the way you called yourself stupid and I just agreed.
If Islamists do not mind killing up to 7,000 people in terrorist attacks (including fellow Muslims) for political reasons logic dictates they will have no problem killing people on line in a market for political reasons too.
And my position has both logic and the UN report to back the position I have outlined, including the memoirs of NATO officers serving in Bosnia at the time and investigative journalists for news media such as The Times of London.
No you'r a hypocrite Joan. We did't aid terrorist or help them in any way, neither did we not know about their weapon shipments as it was delivered under humanitarian aid until it was discovered!. Did we finance them, did we support them? Of course not! Milosevic on the other hand intentionally supported them and financed Serb paramilitary as he himself admitted, for the purpose of "defending Serb interests". By financing war criminals.
You'r really sounding more and more ridicolous in your attempts to defend whatever you are defending. By accusing us of things we had nothing to do with, except that we were used for someones own intention becuase of our geostrathegical position, which is indeed inviting for such groups. And comparing us to actual war criminals and sending us to Hague. So please, spare me with it....
Jasenovac
Largest concentration camp in Croatia
The largest concentration and extermination camp in Croatia. Jasenovac was in fact a complex of several subcamps, in close proximity to each other, on the bank of the Sava River, about 62 miles (100 km) south of Zagreb. The women's camp of Stara Gradiska, which was farther away, also belonged to this complex.
Administration and Structure
Jasenovac was established in August 1941 and was dismantled only in April 1945. The creation of the camp and its management and supervision were entrusted to Department III of the Croatian Security Police (Ustaska Narodna Sluzba; UNS), headed by Vjekoslav (Maks) Luburic, who was personally responsible for everything that happened there. Scores of Ustasa (Croatian fascists) served in the camp; the cruelest was the former priest Miroslav Filipovic - Majstorovic, who killed scores of prisoners with his own hands.
Murder of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies
Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasa regime. The number of Jewish victims was between 20,000 and 25,000, most of whom were murdered there up to August 1942, when deportation of the Croatian Jews to Auschwitz for extermination began. Jews were sent to Jasenovac from all parts of Croatia - from Zagreb, from Sarajevo, and from other cities and smaller towns. On their arrival most were killed at execution sites near the camp: Granik, Gradina, and other places. Those kept alive were mostly skilled at needed professions and trades (doctors, pharmacists, electricians, shoemakers, goldsmiths, and so on) and were employed in services and workshops at Jasenovac. The living conditions in the camp were extremely severe: a meager diet, deplorable accommodations, a particularly cruel regime, and unbelievably cruel behavior by the Ustase guards. The conditions improved only for short periods - during visits by delegations, such as the press delegation that visited in February 1942 and a Red Cross delegation in June 1944.
The acts of murder and of cruelty in the camp reached their peak in the late summer of 1942, when tens of thousands of Serbian villagers were deported to Jasenovac from the area of the fighting against the partisans in the Kozara Mountains. Most of the men were killed at Jasenovac. The women were sent for forced labor in Germany, and the children were taken from their mothers; some were murdered and others were dispersed in orphanages throughout the country.
The End of the Camp
In April 1945 the partisan army approached the camp. In an attempt to erase traces of the atrocities, the Ustase blew up all the installations and killed most of the internees. An escape attempt by the prisoners failed, and only a few survived.
Courtesy of:
"Encyclopedia of the Holocaust"
©1990 Macmillan Publishing Company
New York, NY 10022
http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1993/d93/d93Nelson.html
In early summer, more than 150 tons of weapons were discovered in a warehouse in Maribor, a Slovene city. Ukrainian planes had delivered the goods from Budapest, Hungary, in September 1992. Although the Ukrainian planes had arrived from the Sudan, most of the arms in the Maribor warehouse were Chinese and Czech- rifles, rockets, grenades, and ammunition.
The flights probably originated in Ukraine- some Ukrainian weapons were included in the cache. The planes then flew to the Sudan, perhaps as a cover, or to pick up additional weapons. The landing in Budapest may have been made to enable buyers to examine the cargo before making payment, and/or to pick up other pallets of ammunition. The next to last leg of this supply line was Maribor, from which trucks would have taken the weapons to Bosnia-to combatants on one or more of the sides. Public reports suggest that Austrian businessmen and Slovenian politicians arranged the shipment the Maribor warehouse was meant to be a temporary stop before the shipment was sent on to the "end-user."10
What public reports? What evidence to back that up? What politicians? Their names? Their positions? Someone suggested that that was supposed to have happened?!? Is that supposed to be evidence for anything? There is absolutely no evidence that any Slovenian politician (or citizen for that matter) had anything to do with those shipments, let alone our government. No investigation ever pointed to what you are saying.
What you'r doing is slander, without any backing evidence. And the purpose for doing so is very clear to me. In your desperate attempt to find something negative about us, so you could somehow find excuses for the actions of those you're defending. Well it's doesn't go that easy. Specially when you deliberately lie about others Joan. I am very sorry to say so.
Check his credentials, maybe you can e-mail him and ask for the specific reports he refers to. He is very well qualified, as you can see from this info taken from the following site at http://www.marshallcenter.org/CISS/CISS%20Bios/Nelson.htm:
Dr. Daniel N. Nelson
College of International and Security Studies
Daniel N. Nelson (Ph.D., Johns Hopkins) is a professor of Civil-Military Relations at the George C. Marshall European Center for Security Studies and Editor of International Politics, a peer-reviewed quarterly journal published by Kluwer (Boston and The Hague). Dr. Nelson was CEO of Global Concepts, Inc., an international consulting firm in Alexandria, Virginia, from 1992-1999, and senior consultant to that firm in 1998-99. From 1992-1999, he was also founding Director (1992-95) and Professor in the Graduate Programs in International Studies at Old Dominion University, Norfolk, Virginia. He was a NATO Research Fellow in 1995-96, a William Foster Fellow (scholar-in-residence) at the US Arms Control and Disarmament Agency/State Department in 1998, and a Visiting Scholar at the National Security Education Program of the Department of Defense in 1999.
Previously, he served as a foreign policy consultant in Senator Tom Harkin’s presidential campaign (1992); the Senior Foreign Policy Advisor for Richard Gephardt, when Gephardt was the Majority Leader of the House of Representatives (1990-91); a Senior Associate at the Carnegie Endowment (1989-90); and a Professor of Political Science at the University of Kentucky (1979-88). He has also taught at Georgetown University, The Johns Hopkins University School for Advanced International Studies, and George Washington University. His forthcoming books are At War With Words (Mouton de Gruyter) and Eurasian/East European Security Yearbook (Brassey’s). Among nineteen other books by Daniel Nelson are Post-Communist Politics (co-edited with Stephen White, 1999), After Authoritarianism (1995), East European Security Reconsidered (co-edited with John Lampe, 1993), Romania After Tyranny (1992), and Balkan Imbroglio (1991). Dr. Nelson is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, the International Institute of Strategic Studies, the Atlantic Council of the U.S., and several scholarly and professional associations. Daniel Nelson also serves on a number of advisory panels, including the international executive council of the British American Security Information Council and the international scientific advisory board of the Austrian Institute for International Affairs.
e-mail -- nelsond@marshallcenter.org
I have more details on the Markale thing somewhere, but from memory, British artillery experts were on the scene first followed by the French who were positive that it could not be concluded that the Serbs fired it (mortars leave fragments in a line which is consisten with the direction from which they are fired - by noting the direction, the bearing can be found and thus the most likely place from where the attack was launched). A senior American officer then arrive and told them to leave and told them that their conclusions were wrong, and that they were not to discuss their findings.
There is also the evidence given by Colonel Demurenko who was Deputy head of UNPROFOR personel (?) at the time and is an artillery expert in exactly the same type of weapons that were being used in Bosnia, who noted that accuracy of this single mortar shell was extremely unlikely. The reason for this is that mortars are notoriously inaccurate weapons so that standard practice is to fire several, starting with your initial calculation and 'walk' the following mortars forward. There was no characteristic 'walk' to the fatal mortar. As has been noted, no characteristic 'whistle' was heard. Also, the British had an operational cymbaline motar detecting radar in the vicinity and there is no evidence from this source that the fatal mortar came from the Serbs.
Also the number of people actually killed is in dispute. UN and UNPROFOR experts were barred from immediately inspecting the scenes of carnage. When they finally had access to the bodies, they saw (as several war doctors have said) that the injuries on the corpses did not correspond to a mortar shell, but something much more like a shaped charge.
VRN
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