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WWGD? (What Would Gramsci Do?)
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Posted on 09/16/2001 9:12:08 PM PDT by cicero's_son

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To: American in Israel
would love to hear your thoughts.
21 posted on 09/16/2001 10:26:41 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: Askel5
No, askel5, you misunderstand me.

I realize that the soviets used Gramscian tactics against us to great effect. My point was merely that the early leadership of the Internationale did not see the power of Gramscianism. They banged tables, promised war and destruction, and generally confronted us head on.

If they had chosen a pure Gramscian tack from the outset, I believe far more damage might have been done.

22 posted on 09/16/2001 10:29:16 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: knarf
I thought that was one of their major complaints against us ... we had exported porn, women's rights, individual liberty and freedom, etc. into their culture.

Yes -- and we need to step it up greatly for the new and improved Afghanistan, Iraq, and whatever other Jihadistans need to be uprooted.

23 posted on 09/16/2001 10:31:01 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: Askel5
"Deception strategy."

Yes, it might be. The thought troubles me.

That said, I believe that the capitalist forces unleashed in Russia, China, and throughout the former Warsaw Pact are irreversible. Whatever Gorbachev's original intentions, this is now way beyond his control.

24 posted on 09/16/2001 10:31:35 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: LaBelleDameSansMerci
A wise approach, or not?
25 posted on 09/16/2001 10:32:47 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: cicero's_son
Without more basic undermining of the more noxious elements of the radical culture, religious conversion would just replace fanatic terrorist Moslem jihadists with fanatical terrorist Christian crusaders. Not particularly helpful.
26 posted on 09/16/2001 10:34:24 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: cicero's_son
The other thing that troubles me about this approach is the possibility that Gramscianism is intrinsically corrupting.

It has the feel of a dark art to me, and I wonder if anyone can really employ it without being contaminated. I have never been able to reach a conclusion about this.

Some have argued that it is morally neutral; are chemical weapons "morally neutral?"

27 posted on 09/16/2001 10:35:32 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: cicero's_son
It feel like an organic development.

I'm not familiar with gramscianism. How then is it not an organic development? how could one tell the difference?

28 posted on 09/16/2001 10:37:02 PM PDT by gfactor
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To: steve-b
Perhaps. A good point, certainly.

But I can't imagine one Christian culture fighting a true war of extermination against another today.

At the very least, we would have the common ground of Christ's lovingkindness.

29 posted on 09/16/2001 10:38:11 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: gfactor
Hmmm. I'm trying to think of a good book to recommend, but none are coming to mind.

Simply put, Gramscianism is the tactic of infiltrating the enemy's institutions and "infecting." The Soviets did this with our academic and media elites, and we continue to suffer for it today. They also managed to do it to various western churches, and so you have Western Christians siding with Fidel Castro against the United States, promoting liberation theology, and creating schisms over such nonsense as homosexual marriage.

It is a very complicated and intricate strategy. It involves using so-called "agents of change" who adopt radical positions and slowly mainstream them.

If you want to see an artful Gramscian strategy at work, watch the Reparations debate. It's a textbook case.

30 posted on 09/16/2001 10:42:17 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: cicero's_son
I hadn't seen a thread regarding Gramsci for a long time!

Good questions!

Have you seen the thread where the Bin Laden people are imbedding their messages in Porn Pictures?

Porn for Jihad ...

31 posted on 09/16/2001 10:42:38 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Yes. I just saw it. Incredible.

They are very clever. It should be clear to all by now that our enemies are engaged in a total war effort.

32 posted on 09/16/2001 10:45:20 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: Askel5
The other thing that troubles me about this approach is the possibility that Gramscianism is intrinsically corrupting.

It has the feel of a dark art to me, and I wonder if anyone can really employ it without being contaminated. I have never been able to reach a conclusion about this.

Some have argued that it is morally neutral; are chemical weapons "morally neutral?"

33 posted on 09/16/2001 10:47:17 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: cicero's_son
Wasn't Hillery taught Gramsci through her teacher in college?
34 posted on 09/16/2001 10:48:02 PM PDT by FreedomSurge
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To: FreedomSurge
Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
35 posted on 09/16/2001 10:49:56 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: cicero's_son
The problem is, at this point I see Radical Islam as basically the same thing as communist revolutionism with the Koran instead of a little red book; and with belief in Allah, instead of belief in the Historical Inevitability of Scientific Dialectical Materialism bla bla bla.

Gramscian tactics may work in infiltrating and weakening Western institutions in the interest of those with anti-Western and anti-freedom philosophies, but that doesn't mean the tool can be turned around and used against the latter. The situation is asymmetrical.

36 posted on 09/16/2001 10:50:02 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: cicero's_son
History is replete with examples of governments trying to insidiously control religions. I don’t think the results thus far are promising. While we could no doubt do a great deal to destroy the essential nature of their faith, I cringe at the precedent of our nation actively seeking to subvert any faith.

Dominus Vobiscum

patent  +AMDG

37 posted on 09/16/2001 10:52:49 PM PDT by patent
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To: Dr. Frank
A very good point. Our civilizations are assymetrical.

That said, I would argue that every belief system has an antinomian mode and is vulnerable to exploitation and corruption along those lines. The more rigid the belief system, in some ways, the more powerful the antinomian undercurrent.

38 posted on 09/16/2001 10:52:53 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: patent
See my post #33 above.

Your concerns are valid, and I share them.

Gramscianism may be a dark art; may my moral betters (and they are many!) instruct me on this.

39 posted on 09/16/2001 10:55:21 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: gfactor
Here are some threads on FreeRepublic regarding Gramsci!

Gramsci vs. Tocqueville or Marxism vs. the American Ideology
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a54bec871fa.htm

The Gramscian Roots of America's Culture War
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a174123.htm

Who is Antonio Gramsci? You Better Learn!!!
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a4c610569be.htm

YATES: "Understanding the Culture War: Gramscians, Tocquevillians and Others"
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a56d02c2a1b.htm

40 posted on 09/16/2001 10:58:09 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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