But I can get out the popecorn if you'd like.......
Would you like some popcorn with your butter?
Posted on 06/04/2018 9:25:52 AM PDT by SkyPilot
It has nothing to do with lack of faith in "complete forgiveness." First, everyone in Purgatory is already completely forgiven. Nobody is claiming they can get "more forgiven" through our "works" apart from Christ.
Second, none of our prayers are "apart from Christ." They are all within the Body of Christ, 'in whom we live and move and have our being'. Prayers or works apart from Christ would be a complete absurdity, something like breathing without air.
Third, we all know this forgiveness was granted to these departed souls through their faith in Him, and only Him. Only He can forgive sins.
So what you attributed to Catholics as "lack of faith" is false.
Do you wear the miraculous medal?
Should be a simple yes or no answer to each.
No. No.
Oh. But I did start wearing a button that says “God’s Got This” after I survived E. coli septic shock with multiple organ failures including 2 cardiac arrests, 3 1/2 years ago. Does that count?
And there, but for the grace of God, go I.
Not a one of us is in any position to point fingers about another’s failings.
We don’t know how we would fare if we were in their place.
If everyone in purgatory is COMPLETELY forgiven, then what the heck are they in purgatory for?
Purgatory is only for people who are NOT completely forgiven.
If you are completely forgiven, there is no payment or accountability left for sin.
The slate has been wiped clean.
It's gone.
Done.
Never to be remembered again.
That's what forgiveness is.
If there's any atonement, accountability, payment, anything one has to do for something that was done, then it is NOT forgiven.
God's discipline and chastisement is a comforting reality as it testifies that we are indeed HIS children. But that only happens in this life, the mortal coil we live in because it works to conform us into the image of Christ. Once we die, there is no more work left to do - we are changed, we are in the presence of God, we have the mind of Christ. What does "temporal" punishment in the in-between place called Purgatory accomplish? We don't take our human flesh and blood with us into eternity. We will be given glorified bodies like unto Christ's glorified body. Our soul and spirit has been cleansed from all unrighteousness through faith in Christ and we are clothed in HIS righteousness, not our own.
So, what could possibly be the point of Purgatory after we die? Is it a place where God gets even with us? He's already gotten even when He gave His only begotten Son to suffer and die in our place and we received Him through faith. We are told repeatedly that every hidden thing will be exposed. Every idle word will be accounted for and we will give an account for what we have done whether good or bad. I imagine for some of us, that session might take a bit longer than for others. Could this be that "my whole life flashed before my eyes" event some people in NDE's talk about? Maybe. We will experience rewards and loss of rewards and whatever rewards we do get, Scripture says we will place at the feet of Jesus because He is worthy to receive all glory and honor and praise. No good we have done could have been done without Him working in us. And all our sins and iniquities will be done away with - He says He will remember them no more. I imagine there will be some sorrow and shame for the wrongs we have done but He promises that He will wipe every tear from our eyes and there will not be anymore crying. I just know that God is just and holy and righteous altogether. And I rest in the knowledge that:
Exactly! Catholicism can’t even define what Purgatory really is. Is it a place? A dimension? A state of mind? Is it where physical pain is experienced when we won’t HAVE physical bodies? Is it only some kind of spiritual pain or suffering? Does time exist there? Lots of unanswered questions and very few specifics. What could such suffering accomplish other than to somehow appease a righteous God who already has imputed the righteousness of Christ to us and our sins and iniquities are removed as far as the east is from the west? Yes, human pride prevents many from accepting that salvation is a GIFT - that we do not earn or merit or deserve it. It takes humility and simple child-like faith to please God.
Or HOW could it appease a righteous God whose wrath at sin was poured out on Jesus, the substitutionary sacrifice for our sins?
Jesus said, "It is finished!"
In the Greek, that is Tetelestai meaning *It is finished*
http://biblehub.com/greek/5055.htm
Strong's Concordance
teleó: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I end, accomplish, pay
Definition: (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate:
5055 teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate),
i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation.
See 5056 (telos).
The whole point of the cross is for Jesus to take on Himself the penalty for our sin so that we don't have to.
And, yes, it does mean getting a pass when we shouldn't. That's what forgiveness is all about. It is being released from the penalty of the sin we have committed.
And when we forgive others, we release them from the debt they owe to us to atone or account for the wrong they did us.
It means free and clear, never bringing it up again. If there's still any accountability for some action or sin or wrong, then there has been no forgiveness.
What Catholicism teaches as forgiveness is not what Scripture does.
I don’t suppose I will need to go to purgatory, since I have already been there. 🤣 It’s in Colorado, and has good skiing ⛷ I was “suffering” for Jesus on the slopes of Purgatory. No need for anymore suffering. 😁😊
Now, here is one for you. When I was a catholic, sometime back in the last millennium, I was always taught that Limbo was another place we could go, after death. Now, I NEVER hear about the place. Does the place no longer exist in catholic doctrine? Inquiring minds want to know. 😁
The truth is, of course. Neither purgatory, nor limbo has EVER existed. I am thinking the concept, probably came from Greek and Roman mythology, or more commonly known as paganism, but hey, I don’t know for sure. 😁😊
This is completely true for sins done before one entered into the salvific covenant at conversion, and one is forgiven as a contrite believer who acknowledges/confesses and his known sin with a repentant heart (Proverbs 28:13 -though he can be struggling with one: Heb. 12:1), and such repentant faith justifies one despite sins he is ignorant of. But to refuse to acknowledge sin once one is convicted of them is a denial of faith. (Heb. 6:1-10)
However, there is chastisement in this life in order to bring about repentance, (1Co. 5:5; 11:32) as well as for a result of one's sins he has repented of, in order to correct the character which led to it, and or to correct damage done and to manifest to others that there is a cost to sin, and deter others.
For when we sin we affect others, directly or indirectly, and thus God can manifest correction. God forgave king David the second he acknowledged his sin with a repentant heart, (2 Samuel 12:7-14) yet he suffered chastisement, not in order to be forgiven, but because others need to see God hates sin, and thus correct them for what they said.
And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. (2 Samuel 12:13-14)
In the NT, pastors who sin are to be publicly rebuked/shamed (1 Timothy 5:20) and that they are of repentant heart will not exclude them from this. Our disobedience, though we confess it with a repentant heart, can mean we lost a position and not be used by God they way we could have been.
Your kid may wreck the family car by negligence, and result in bodily hurt to themselves and or to others, and you can forgive such, yet the effect is still with them, even though God can undo any such effects. And you
And you may require the child you forgave for wrecking the family car by negligence to pay for damages, as a matter of principal, and which is a form of chastisement
And God does remember our positive and negative behavior as Christians in both rewarding our work (which manifests our character) and or suffering the loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ at His return, (1 Corinthians 3:8ff; 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) as heretofore substantiated. .
And again, the burning up of corrupt works is not in order that one may be with the Lord, which is where he went at death, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) but one is saved despite this loss, not because of them. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
And also gain, the next transformative experience after this life that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)
Thus Catholicism is not wrong in recognizing there is a cost to sins that are forgiven, however, the doctrine that this means postmortem "purifying punishments" commencing at death, and in order to make one good enough to be with God, is plainly erroneous. As is that the act itself of baptism, without the required personal wholehearted repentant justifying faith, (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) makes one actually good enough to be with God.
Thus those who trust their paedobaptism made them children of God and never had their "day of salvation" in casting all their repentant faith on the risen Lord Jesus to save them by Hid sinless shed blood, (Rm. 3:25) will not than awaken in purgatory after death, but - sadly - in Hell fire, to their eternal horror!
That is the point I've been trying to make. There are consequences for your actions while on this planet.
You steal....you may go to jail.
Get caught in an affair your spouse may leave you....or grab a frying pan and knock you upside the head and then leave you.
Have you EVER had links provided, for verification purposes? My guess is, no, you have not. You can wait from now, until doomsday, before you get any.
If everyone in purgatory is COMPLETELY forgiven, then what the heck are they in purgatory for?
Question of the thread.
Perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else. I can't seem to find the post where I stated this. One either has faith in the saving works of Christ or one doesn't.
I do not question people's faith. What is VERY important in my mind is for all of us to have sound doctrine.
But I can get out the popecorn if you'd like.......
Would you like some popcorn with your butter?
I don't mind discussions of doctrine. I do mind discussions that proclaim that I'm faithless or a liar.
Out for the day, bro, but I'll be back with you later.
I just bought a box of microwave popcorn, at the grocery store. Yes, believe it or not, we actually DO have grocery stores here. Most are in the malls. We used to have 7 malls, but the NCCC Mall in Matina, burned down last December, with 37 killed. That was our favorite grocery store/mall. Now, we go to G Mall, Toril. 😊 About the only thing you can get, that we can’t, is French dressing and most diet drinks. Oh well, when living in this south sea island paradise, I must sacrifice a little. 🤣 Now, if you will excuse me, it’s rather hot today. I might walk 3 blocks, to the beach, and suffer for Jesus, while sipping cool drinks. 👍🇵🇭
Oh, man. You’re suffering! Enjoy the beach!
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