Posted on 02/06/2016 7:44:03 AM PST by don-o
“The F-35 was not designed for air-to-air combat. “
I don’t know what makes you think that, but the Joint Strike Fighter program has as one of its program goals to replace air-to-air fighters like the F-18. Being an air-to-air fighter is in the program specifications.
“dogfighting has been on the wane since the 1930s at least.”
We were dogfighting in the 1930’s? Which war?
WWII (1940’s) and Vietnam (1960’s) both saw significant dogfighting.
Many might say that was a dogfighter's heyday, being the first in jets and last in prop jobs. I sure grew up worshiping F-86 pilots.
My son had mentioned "strike jets" and there's also this from the Meridian NAS page
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/tw1/index.asp
Training Wing ONE receives Student Naval Aviators upon completion of Primary Flight Training in the T-34C Turbomentor. Training Squadron SEVEN and Training Squadron NINE train Student Naval Aviators in the Boeing T-45C Goshawk, the Navy's most advanced strike jet trainer.
Yup. . .that is the Navy.
There is the right way of doing things, the wrong way of doing things. . .and then there is the Navy way. . .
;-)
Do you paint the Marines with that same brush?
Actually, Ben tells me that the Marine student aviators have a higher standard within the squadrons. Navy gets one more “fail” opportunity on their tests than do Marines before remediation kicks in.
” dogfighting has been on the wane since the 1930s at least.”
Care to explain?
Curious statement as we have dogfights, even to this day. The F-4 was designed without a gun precisely because of the opinion that dogfights were nevermore, but we found out the hard way that is not the case. We close to the merge and engage. . .a completely stand-off A/A fight is not reality.
The F-22 has a gun because we know that we will have to close to the merge and enter that ‘phonebox for a knife-fight. And also because we know we will merge we have fighters that are maneuverable. . .if we weren’t going to merge then we wouldn’t need a jet that can out-perform other jets.
The JSF was designed to replace the F-18, the F-16, and eventually the F-15. These are all fighters with an A/A mission.
The JSF, like all other jets, it is the planned mission that defines the configuration of the jet. For the JSF, A/G. . . loaded with A/G munitions (with some self-protection A/A missiles and a loaded internal gun), and if planned for A/A, it’s load-out will be wall-to-wall missiles and the internal gun.
The JSF is supposed to replace the A-10 and the A-10 has an A/A capability, too (A/A missiles and the GAU-8 gun can really reach out and touch someone in the A/A environment. . .and the A-10 got an A/A kill during Gulf War I.
Evolving weapons and tactics make A/A engagements even more difficult than a few years past, let alone the 1930’s, so “dogfighting” skills are even more relevant and essential.
“The egoes of fighter pilots - never a small thing - cannot permit them to admit it, though.”
Ego is irrelevant about this subject. Missions and capability are facts and we know for a fact A/A is complex, difficult and requires modern technology and a warriors heart to win. And fighter pilots meet that challenge.
“And it’s just possible they enjoy the hero-worship that washes over them, from star-struck lesser mortals at all points of the compass.”
Not to be rude, seriously, but that really does sound like envy.
Yes, it is nice to be recognized for your select skills, aggression and an ability to fly, fight and win. Who wouldn’t like that, to be respected and admired for who you are and what you do?
But seriously, it is a challenging profession where if you screw up you are lucky to survive. Study and practice are required to hone your skills. Study to achieve in-depth knowledge of your—and your adversaries—jet’s capability and systems, along with study of weapons you use and your adversaries weapons as well. And this study is on-going and constant, as technology moves on, upgrades happen and breakthroughs (ours and THEIRS) happen. One must be intellectually prepared and possess the confidence that you are the best, that you will win because of your jet and your skills (”hands”).
Ego? Yes, you need that to be a fighter pilot. And that is not a bad thing.
Not one fighter pilot goes a career without losing friends to accidents, and then there is war. Because flying fighters is a challenge few can meet, of course there will be ego at play. However, do not be fooled by hollyweird movies (”Top Gun” for example). No one, NO ONE acts like that among their peers. . .after all, who are you going to impress? We are all fighter pilots. And those that do, do not last long before they are shut-down.
Cheers.
The Korean War was between the two I mentions, so I just wanted to show a timeline, that’s all.
Marines? Well. . . .”The Marines, looking for a few good men. . . . .and a couple hundred thousand dummies”
Along with the Navy’s slogan: “Navy, it’s not just a job. . . .it’s a silly job.”
The Army: “Be all you can be. . .clueless and pathetic”
;-)
Joking is just something we all do. . .and the Air Force gets its share as well.
Back in the day, late 70’s, the Navy took a bunch of us guys to Pensacola to visit OCS and see the training and such. Interesting. I almost went with the Navy but didn’t take that step. Later I went with the Air Force, liked their jets better. . .but that’s just me.
Gawd luv the guys that make the Navy a career, as it is a hard life and dangerous, too.
Prayers for your son.
I have always thought the primary reason the Marines want an aircraft is to protect their guys on the ground. I have seen several reports from Afghanistan and Iraq where the bad guys were just across the road from our guys. That tells me the only weapon to use is the gun. The A-10 works well in these situations because it is accurate with its gun. I cannot come up with any other air-to-ground weapons that would work in these situations.
Yes, it has an internal gun that ‘pops’ out when fired and retracts when the trigger is released. Part of the L/O configuration.
During the early 70’s we took an instrumented Phoenix missile to Grumman’s plant at Calverton, Long Island. This missile was to measure the captive flight environment. We flew it on flight number three of aircraft number three. We flew this missile many times over the next 18 or so months. One day, number three departed and recovered. At the debrief, I noticed many Navy pilots. They were there to pick up aircraft to take to the fleet. Now the F-14 didn’t have 8,000,000 lines of code but it was still a complex aircraft. How long have we been working on the F-35?
Good point.
Recall that the F-22 went all “blue screen of death” when it crossed the international dateline while flying to Hawaii.
Code issue. . undetected til then.
Go ask any fighter pilot let them explain it to you, to a man or women they want one maybe two.
Engineers been trying to get rid of that gun for nearly 60 years now. Its usually elite aviators first question now when evaluating new designs.
Oh noes. I remember a similar problem with the F-14 that did a roll when it went across the equator. That must have been a bit of surprise.
One other thing, when the cold war ended the government paid the defense contractors to merge. This killed both competition and innovation. We don’t know what we lost when there was no more Hughes Aircraft Company or Grumman or McDonnell.
Not sure if the government “paid” them to merge. I’d have to see the DoD budget to verify.
As I see it, the defense budgets were significantly reduced because we were not buying as much and not investing as much as before, therefore, multiple defense contractors could not survive.
Lack of competition is certainly a bad thing, for sure.
Interesting. Had not heard of that one. Interesting.
When flying the F-15E there was a software issue that caused the jet to abruptly pitch up and roll under limited flight conditions.
I was executing a 9G defensive break-turn to the left and was dropping below 375kts when the jet practically “snap-rolled” to the right while at the same time the nose was pitching to the vertical. By the time I recovered I was 70 deg nose high and in about a 45 deg right bank. . .surprised me!
Software issue identified and corrected.
The nature of the service. Marines have always held ourelves to a much higher standard, always will. The old saying not everyone can be a Marine is still true.
Thank you. When those two helos went down recently, it felt just a little like those were my sons. When mine became a Marine, another Marine told me to expect that.
Big news here on the islands as the F-22s had just passed through. GPS flipped dates going west over the date line and threw a wrench into the works. Luckily they were flying with a tanker that led them beck to Hawaii.
So I understood the problem. Farging software.
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