Posted on 02/25/2015 12:04:07 PM PST by ckilmer
The other was the Dodge Omni.
But neither of them were Volkswagens or Audis. True, for a time they used VW engine parts (short block) and VW manual transmissions. The basic car was the Simca Horizon. Simca was the French division of Chrysler.
In no way was the Omni/Horizon "identical" to the VW Rabbit/Golf, as you claim. The most you could honestly say was that they were similar.
But your point about Consumer Reports is spot on. They pulled the same stunt with their rollover claim about the Suzuki Samurai. From that link:
" The videos showed, among other things, that the testing personnel had driven the Samurai through the course no fewer than 46 times before getting it to tip up on two wheels on the 47th, a result that was met by laughing and cheering from the group."
From a previous link:
While travelling (sic) at freeway speeds the (Consumer Reports) tester twisted the steering wheel approximately 90 degrees, and then took both hands off the wheel. The O/H failed to display sufficient recovery to satisfy the CR testers."
The CR automobile reliability ratings are highly suspect since they are based on subscriber responses to an annual survey, a "self-selected" sample. CR's subscriber base tends to be far older, better educated, and of higher income than the general population, so statistically, the CR sample is flawed. The process by which the arrive at their ratings from the raw data is never revealed.
Is CR biased? In some cases, without a doubt. Is it intentional? That can be debated, but the bias is there if you look for it.
Is CR useful? Yes, in a way, but only if you understand that it is just one of many data points that can be considered, if you take the time to do some research.
Should CR be taken as gospel? Absolutely not.
Wrong....battery economics will never overcome battery physics...
Just so.
Petrol based fuels require only a can for portability, be it a five gallon jerry can or gas tank. No additional bulk such as any chemical reaction battery requires. The bigger the battery the greater the weight which requires more power to move. Bulk of such robs any vehicle of usable volume for passengers or freight.
At the end of its useful life the gas can or fuel tank require no additional processing to render them environmentally safe, whatever that means on any given day. Recycled cans an tanks easily re-smelted.
As far as providing energy for third world countries, petrol is the only way to go for transportation, heating, cooking and small scale local generation of electricity.
End of story.
Fresh Wind you sound like a car guy.
The point of the talking about Consumer Reports was that they gave Tesla rave reviews last year.
That gave people the impression that engineering/ride/look of the Tesla S was pretty solid.
Is it your contention that the engineering etc of the Tesla S is way over rated. That Consumer Reports review of the Tesla S was unwarranted?
End of story.
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Agree that currently gasoline offers the best portability.
The problem with calling this the end of the story is that there are literally 100’s of labs around the world working on improving fuel cells and batteries. When you throw in university graduate programs —that number goes into the 1000’s of labs.
Throw in the power of modern experimental tools —and you get an awful lot of pressure being exerted on the problem.
Given this pressure—I just don’t think it prudent to say “end of story”. People saying this have just been made into total fools by new inventions for the last 150 years.
Fast charging long lived batteries have been in the works for over a century....
I’m telling you...there are certain limitations to storing electricity which can’t be overcome. As long as gasoline is readily available, electric cars simply won’t be economical.
But companies seeking government-mandated sales and hiring people to claim it’s a good idea have a lot fewer limitations.
Im telling you...there are certain limitations to storing electricity which cant be overcome. As long as gasoline is readily available, electric cars simply wont be economical.
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Maybe but Tesla is currently working on a giant factory in Reno Nevada which will produce batteries for his cars starting in two years that do 270 miles on a charge at half their current costs. These costs savings will help bring the cost of the next generation of Teslas into the 35k range.
They’re just using economies of scale to solve the problem rather than advanced physics.
As to chemistry/physics I don’t think it right to say that scientists have been working on batteries for 100 years without much improvement. That Tesla’s batteries can do 270 miles has to tell you something.
Get back to me when untold millions of dollars wasted on exotic batteries reach the simplicity, economy, and universal usage obtained by the simple gas can or tank. And the freedom it obtains
Enjoy your hobby knowing that you are aiding and abetting in robbing your fellow citizens with increased taxes, overt and covert. Let the electric revolution occur the old fashion way via the free market and not by government fiat.
BTW did you know there’s a rest stop on the NJ Turnpike named Kilmer after the poet. Appropos of nothing.
All I’m saying is that I don’t necessarily trust CR’s opinion as the final word on any product.
Here’s a discussion of what CR did to the Subaru BRZ:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51307
They gave it as bad an overall reliability rating as they possibly could on the basis of two “problem areas”, specifically body integrity and audio system. At worst, these are annoyance issues, and have nothing to do with the mechanical integrity of the car. Every other rating category was above or much above average.
When they publish stuff like this that makes no sense whatsoever, you develop a certain mistrust of their methodology and motives.
As for the Tesla, yes, from all I’ve read, it’s a great car for what it is.
But it simply isn’t a practical solution for all types of travel that you would need a car for. No pure EV is that.
It’s fine for local use if that’s all you do, or if you can afford an additional conventional vehicle for longer distances.
“Im telling you...there are certain limitations to storing electricity which cant be overcome. As long as gasoline is readily available, electric cars simply wont be economical.” —rottndog
“But it simply isnt a practical solution for all types of travel that you would need a car for. No pure EV is that. Its fine for local use if thats all you do, or if you can afford an additional conventional vehicle for longer distances.” —Fresh Wind
Like ckilmer mentioned, battery prices have been falling quickly, from $800/kWh a few years ago, to around $250 to $300/kWh today (depending on who you ask), to $180/kWh once the GigaFactory is online in a year or so.
I think the most attractive vehicles with a battery are the plug-in hybrids. These have smaller batteries, ranging from 20 to 50 miles, that allow you to do your daily driving on electricity, but they still have a gas engine & tank for whenever you go farther. Since it costs between one-half to one-quarter as much to go 100 miles on electricity than it does on gasoline, these kinds of cars can 1) pay for their price premium in a few years and 2) reduce our OPEC funding by 90%.
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>> “That gave people the impression that engineering/ride/look of the Tesla S was pretty solid.” <<
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Total strawman!
That was never the question.
The Tesla is a fine, solid toy, suitable for those wealthy enough to absorb its cost and lack of long distance emergency functionality with a shrug because it is cute and fun.
For a one car family, no plug-in totally electric car will ever be an acceptable or wise choice. A conventional liquid re-fuelable vehicle will always out-perform an electric plug-in when all aspects of transportation are taken into consideration.
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It is the “end of story” for realists.
The hundreds or thousands, or whatever grant suckers “working” on improving electric storage have been at a dead end for 20 years.
That is what the unbiased experts say right now. All of the ideas have been beat to death, and they see nothing promising down the road.
You can exert all the “pressure” you wish on El Capitan but it isn’t going to move one milimeter.
Gasoline and natural gas are where we are, and where we’re going, and as soon as we get your soul mate out of the White Hut we can move on with them.
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Ideally, the public will be the primary benefactor from a real competition between the different systems, with economic votes, called dollars, determining the eventual victor.
In the real world, as with the Net Neutrality vote yesterday, regulators will be bought and paid for, and will place obstacles in front of some, but not other, options, making the winner a choice made by 3 people, based on who gives the biggest bribes.
We should have been putting heads on pikes years ago.
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>> “Since it costs between one-half to one-quarter as much to go 100 miles on electricity than it does on gasoline...” <<
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That is the politically created sham that we have to wipe out before it wipes out all working class Americans! They can’t afford to support the toys of the wealthy on their basic needs incomes.
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>> “In the real world, as with the Net Neutrality vote yesterday, regulators will be bought and paid for, and will place obstacles in front of some, but not other, options, making the winner a choice made by 3 people, based on who gives the biggest bribes.” <<
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America 101!
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Agree totally.
The Tesla is a fine, solid toy, suitable for those wealthy enough to absorb its cost and lack of long distance emergency functionality with a shrug because it is cute and fun.
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Actually, the internal combustion engine car started out as a toy for the wealthy. Henry Ford came out with the model T. Mass production brought car prices down far enough for much of the US driving public.That’s actually the model that Tesla is working off of. They’re currently a high end car. In three years they plan to come down to 35 K for the Tesla S—which is high end for the middle class. They’ll do that by way of mass producing car batteries that do 260 miles on a charge. I think in three years the miles@charge will be about 300. That’s still pricy for much of the driving public. But the direction of pricing for electric cars is downward.
“That is the politically created sham that we have to wipe out before it wipes out all working class Americans! They cant afford to support the toys of the wealthy on their basic needs incomes.” —editor-surveyor
You misunderstood me, those prices are not based on subsidies. Electricity is just dirt cheap compared to gasoline, from around $1.20 per gallon equivalent down to around $0.60 per gallon equivalent, depending on your rate.
If you look at the factors, including $/gallon that we pay at the pump and miles per gallon on a typical car, we pay around 7¢ to 10¢ per mile for gasoline. Electricity costs around 2¢ to 4¢ per mile if you look at how much we pay per kWh on our electric bills and the miles/kWh that electric cars get. I ran the numbers a few weeks ago in more detail here (gas prices are about 20¢ more expensive since then):
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3245953/posts?page=111#111
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>> “You misunderstood me, those prices are not based on subsidies. Electricity is just dirt cheap compared to gasoline” <<
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Are you deliberately ignoring the herd of elephants in that room?
Electricity for transportation should carry the appropriate taxes to support our highways. It is the wealthier segment that drives the toys that are skipping out on this.
In addition, the electric grid is having to be upgraded at tremendous cost to permit this excess.
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