Posted on 09/01/2014 10:59:32 AM PDT by WhiskeyX
Thanks for the links. Some were useful.
The majority of folks in E. Ukraine want to remain part of Ukraine and don't want to be part of Russia. There are NO democratically elected reps in E. Ukraine that are part of the insurgency, that can speak for E. Ukraine.
The most difficult matter was to get Poroshenko to sit down with the East leadership...which he had refused time and again from the beginning...
Your so-called "Eastern leadership" is nothing more than unelected thugs.
, even after saying he would do just that when running for Pres.
He never said that when he was running for president.
Instead he unloaded with targeted shelling of the east...and the escalation ensued.
Porshenko has simply been responding to a Russian backed uprising by a minority of thugs in the East.
Poroshenko AGAIN has to change his military leadership as announced this week...he has o control there and the troops are continuing to refuse to fight when they are loosing a battles, and this as parents protest against their children being sent to the East..
Parents of soldiers protest in both Ukraine and Russian.
Added to this the US has stepped away from supporting Poroshenko,
The US is supporting Poroshenko now the way they have always supported Poroshenko.
leaving Europe and Nato to step up....of course this 'AFTER' the US ceased control of their oil and gas infrastructure...
Wow. The US has not seized control of Ukraine's oil and gas infrastructure.
You post nothing but rubbish.
Well... we'll have to continue to disagree on who the moving parties are in this I guess....but it was interesting , wouldn't you say, that Hague said:
"We will place further sanctions on Russia if they don't remove their borders away from 'our bases'.. LOL...here's the map for perspective
How many sovereign countries is NATO invading right now??
Looks like Russia would be pretty stupid to go to war with such a powerful, globe-encompassing force as NATO, which is clearly far superior to Russia’s own forces.
......You stated...(Poroshenko) “He never said that when he was running for president:....
Oh but he did and more than one occassion.
Poroshenko Interview that he would meet with Eastern and Southern Ukraine leadership:
Would you give autonomy to the regions?
We would give financial autonomy — what language to speak, what monuments to build. That is what people need.
Would the governors be elected locally?
An elected ‘local council’ would elect an executive committee [to appoint the governors]. NOT appoint them in Kiev by the prime minister or the president as today. Only defense, military, security and police would be controlled from the center.
I will do my best to try to unite the country...” To invite people from the south and east to the government”..... This is exactly what people need — to participate in the government of their country.
Sure they can have autonomy. All they need to do is throw down their weapons and surrender.
Any ‘autonomous’ zones will likely be ruled from Moscow
exactly
You've offered no source.
Sounds disjointed. You'll hav to document that Hague actually said that.
There is nothing in your link that shows Poroshenko saying that he would sit done with the unelected separatists.
The Soviet Union had a buffer zone of 'Warsaw Pact' allies, separating its border from the capitalist world.....
And here we have the growing strength of Nato, which has spread east ...and people wonder why Russia is drawing the line at Ukraine? Come on!
I doubt there was any agreement on that
Russian Occupation Force in East Ukraine distribute fliers to locals instructing them on how to behave.
Including turning in those who are pro-Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T6m3jidE5A&feature=youtu.be
Obviously Russia sees NATO and the west as their enemies, which never changed. Now they have a leader who think eastern Europe is still part of Russia.
Here's a simple response.
Ukraine had no interest in joining NATO.
Russia has invaded Ukraine.
Ukraine now has an interest in joining NATO.
Well, perhaps...but I tend to think a bargain will be struck...as even Porosehnko said Ukraine could not function independantly from Russia.....the EU is already struggling how to play Ukraine with the IMF and funding. It’s not about the people of Ukraine...it’s about who controls the resources there...and the Oligarchy Government.
Putin doesn’t want Ukraine or he’d had it long ago....nor does he want the East....that IS going to end up affiliated far more with Ukraine than Russia. Otherwise Putin would not have raised the stakes by calling, for the first time, for ‘statehood’ to be considered for East Ukraine...and this right after the EU gave Putin one week to change his course or there will be further sanctions. (they’re still playing tit-for -tat).
Poroshenko and Putin are both mule-headed and know each other’s stubborness well ....but it’s a far better match than between Obama and Putin. The further Poroshenko gets from Obama and deals with the EU the better for Ukraine overall.... and since Bo has said no US military involvement in Ukraine, ( though CIA, Blackwater and who knows who else, are present anyway)... it will have to be European boots on the ground in Ukraine against RUssia and Nato cannot do much because Ukraine is not a member of Nato....yet.
They’ll do just that (sort of) once there’s agreements on the conditions. After all they disarmed once before and look where they’re at now...I don’t think they’ll do that without some sort of backup....and it won’t be a surrender as Poroshenko called for...it will be “agreements” etc.
The idea is Ukraine will remain Ukraine.....there is no win because it is Ukraine. Russia knew that from the beginning....and so did Porosehnko...it’s the Oligarchs and the Militia’s who weren’t about ready to forfeit their control of the East....they’ve been running it all in Ukraine for eons ...it’s like taking down the mafia!
Well after the relentless bombing and shelling of the East by Kiev you couldn't hardly blame "the Eastern people" for hating Kiev...and they do...and being more comfortable with Russia...the lessor of the two evils....
I suspect those who don't want to return to Ukraine under Kiev will remain in Russia. Those who've vacated the East to other areas in Ukraine for safety will likely return...along with some from the West since Kiev's promising free housing for those in the West to move there....
Bottom line...Ukraine will always be in rebellion in one form or another...it's it's nature to do so.....Besides Winter's coming for Ukrainians and they all know it!
Oh baloney!....just as in everything else about Ukraine they are hot then cold on everything, and that includes Nato...all pending on what elections are happening at the moment and which Oligarchs have what influence and where.
From the moment of the 1991 collapse of the USSR Nato has ‘relentlessly’ pursued a strategy of encircling Russia and still is doing so as it entices with carrots other countries not yet members...(check the maps, any maps on Nato Expansion) ..it's brought 12 countries into central Europe, all formerly allied with Moscow, into the NATO alliance with Ukraine being the “gold”. Putin finally drew a line at Ukraine from his perspective.
Putin's biggest beef is he's not about ready to let the US/Nato put Military bases in Ukraine, or for that matter any of the former Soviet Countries without some serious backlash. Both the Orange and the Maidan revolutions agreed to placing such as condition of accepting their money.
Ukraine has always been on the table for Nato membership...and it always will be...it's in the EU expansion plans......remaining neutral will only be until the population is reconfigured which we see happening now.
The Western Ukraine is all for Nato Memebrship.....they just have to spread the population around...(free housing in the east now for westerners) also riding much of the East of the Russian population.. either by shelling or by moving out as refugees. This too we see happening.
Eu/Nato knew well Ukraine would be a tough take...and that Putin wouldn't just stand by....they also knew their was resistence by some of the population enough to slow it down from joining Nato. But you can bet with certainty the plan is for Ukraine's full membership with Nato when all is said and done...and it isn't close yet.
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