Posted on 04/08/2014 8:07:42 AM PDT by don-o
Taking her argument public rather than exhausting the chain-of-command
Evidently the Commandant was in on this thing from the get go.
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140406/CAREERS03/304060022/2nd-lt-s-daring-infantry-op-ed
Naturally Santangelo isn't going to question the standards, it would be bad form, but if a sufficient number of females can't meet the standard then......
Perhaps the standards aren't necessary.
So, let me get your thinking straight. Santangelo was already an officer and the standards in question involved the standards for becoming an infantry officer. So offering female candidates for infantry officer proper training to meet the demands of the test to become an infantry officer would result in more females failing the infantry officer test and reduce the number of female officers. yup, makes perfect sense. I stand corrected.
Where do you think this “proper training” is going to occur?
Are you proposing additional “boot camp” for the women?
If not, your only option is to upgrade the standards in OCS or TBS. The Basic School is the six month training that all officers, regardless of MOS, must complete. It occurs after commissioning. OCS - Officer Candidate School - occurs before commissioning.
It’s not that difficult a concept.
Women don't belong in combat.They don't belong there for a number of reasons,one involving the fact that a civilized,advanced nation like ours has more respect,or *should* have more respect,for womens' lives than mens'.Think "women and children first".
Another reason has to do with the basic,undeniable,unshakable differences between men and women.One of these differences "emotionality" (a word,I suspect,that doesn't even exist),would cause the "typical" woman to be less effective in combat than the "typical" man.I saw a documentary some years back that addressed that very subject.It went like this...two platoons of Marine recruits,one male,one female.These two platoons had just undergone the same training exercise earlier in the day..an exercise which,it appeared,was a *very* difficult and strenuous one.That evening the guys were interviewed about their day.They were clearly exhausted,sore and maybe even a bit dispirited but all promised that they weren't going to give in.The women were also interviewed...every one of them was weeping uncontrollably.With God as my judge what I say is true.
The difference I point out absolutely doesn't make women "inferior"...or "stupid"...or "worthless".It *does* mean that they're not as well suited to the pressures,dangers or horrors of combat as are men.
And BTW...I served in the Army (not the Marines) and was never ordered anywhere near combat.But I did experience more than a few difficult,lonely and frightening moments in BCT...but never once did I shed a single tear...let alone become overcome by tears.
bump to see if I have made any progress
As I was...haha I was enlisted so page 13 for us but you are very correct.
Best decisions are sometimes those that are left unsaid. Nice story thanks for sharing.
Page 13 is essentially the equivalent of being reprimanded and written up in the civilian world. It is non judicial punishment and goes into your official record. If I recall put in page 13 of your record. You can receive punishment of reduction in rank, 30 days confined to barracks and stripped of 50 percent of you pay.
I stand corrected again it was a page 11 period! Thanks for reminder
Page 11 not 13. My mistake.
I am even more astonished she took it public if the commandant was aware.
So, if the commandant was aware and was not going to take further action she should have then taken it up the chain, or if the commandant was aware and was taking action she arrogantly took it public anyway.
She had not exhausted the chain of command—not good.
Amos explained that the rule about not getting a second chance was intended to protect the unsuccessful officer’s ability to get into their future military occupational specialty and be positioned for the critical selection for a regular commission, rather than staying as a reserve officer, which limits their potential for a career. But, he said, “we’ll take care of them.”
I thought I had read this closely. But I missed that she was a Reserve officer. What I did not miss is that Amos was in on this from the start - after she washed out. The strong inference is that he approved her bypassing the chain of command.
If the OCS instructor holds her to a higher standard than specified by regulations in order to help her achieve her goal, the OCS instructor will be subject to severe discipline. A single complaint of discrimination, upheld by the investigative process (which is required to see exceeding the regulations as a violation) will end the career of the instructor.
I agree the lack of a second chance, when seen in light of the male regs, is wrong. But to blame OCS, which enforces standards enshrined in the regulations, is poppycock. Further, to make a public outcry when the proper channels are inside the chain of command is disgraceful.
To be rewarded for doing so is further disgrace on the Corps.
So it’s the same thing as an Article 15 in the UCMJ (my experience is USAF) just applicable to the Navy?
Perfect example of thinking inside the box. The term instructor was a generalization as opposed to the student. The instructor is the corp staff, not just the OCS instructor. Nothing prevents the corp from establishing a physical training path for woman with the stated intent of elevating physical performance for those desiring such career paths. The creator of this physical training path could be fully conversant with the requirements of all corp tests and establish appropriate goals.
Chain of command is a vital element of any structured organization and not to be taken lightly. However, it does have its weaknesses especially with respect to discrimination issues. If you wish to argue otherwise, please start with explaining Tail-Hook away.
Neither you nor I know what steps she took within the chain of command. We do not know if she experienced negative consequences for breaching chain of command. We do know that a General evaluated her actions and acted upon them. I will take his assessment and response to the situation over yours at this point.
I see. For you, regulations and standards are simply suggestions. Good luck with that point of view.
Yeah, I don't get what people here are freaking out about. I don't think women have any place in the Infantry, either, but if the men get a 2nd chance, then why wouldn't the women--who policy says can attend the training--also?
So many knee-jerks on these threads, it's amazing.
I would say yes
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