Was Iraq Worth It?

Townhall.com ^ | March 19, 2013 | Pat Buchanan

[mjp]

If Saddam had no WMD, had no role in 9/11, did not attack us, did not threaten us, and did not want war with us, was our unprovoked attack on that country a truly just and moral war?

Saddam was an oppressive tyrant who denied natural rights to his citizens. By the Declaration of Independence, any government that is tyrannical deserves to be overthrown. It becomes a duty when is in the best interests of those oppressed.This also applies to legitimate foreign governments who support and protect natural rights.

[dragnet2]

BS....There are corrupt/tyrannical governments all over the planet, in fact we deal and trade with some of them...

BTW, if ya think we went into Iraq because he was mean to some of his people, you'll believe anything.

[FatherofFive]

The way Iraq was handled and ended up, I would say it was not worth the effort on our part, caused by our ignorance of Islam, and our worrying about the opinions of the UN and countries, many of who hate us anyway. -tom

Captain, you are so right.

But it is not that we didn't know about Islam's intentions since before the Crusades. We just choose to ignore the reality of a 'religion' that is evil. Here is what Winston Churchil wrote about Islam and its impact on civilization:

A quote from an 1899 book by Winston Churchill, "The River War", in which he describes Muslims he apparently observed during Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome. “

[dfwgator]

So why aren’t we busy overthrowing Mugabe?

[9YearLurker]

No.

[Brad from Tennessee]

Days before September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington Saddam Hussein put the Iraqi armed forces on “Alert G”—the highest state of readiness his troops had been since the 1991 Gulf War. Saddam and his immediate family moved into bombproof bunkers. A hijack ringleader, Mohamed Atta, was later linked to an Iraqi intelligence operative in Prague. Saddam maintained a terrorist training site at Salman Pak in Iraq where foreign Jihadists, mostly Saudi, trained in the art of hijacking jetliners with bare fists and knives. In the late 1990’s a conspiracy was exposed in which Saddam was channeling funds to al-Qaeda for designated attacks in Europe and the Middle East. Saddam wanted to be able to conduct specific terrorist strikes without leaving Iraqi fingerprints. The operation resulted in some exiled Iraqi dissidents being murdered before the scheme was discovered.

There was a large body of circumstantial evidence tying Iraq to al-Qaeda after 9/11. The U.S. news media has done its best to bury or minimize it.

When G.W. Bush took office in 2001 he inherited a National Security Council that had endorsed “regime change” in Iraq long before 9/11. One of its most influential voices was Kenneth Pollock who wrote “The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq” in 2002.

From Wikipedia:

[Pollack is credited with persuading liberals of the case for the Iraq war. New York Times columnist Bill Keller, in supporting the Iraq war in 2003, wrote “Kenneth Pollack, the Clinton National Security Council expert whose argument for invading Iraq is surely the most influential book of this season, has provided intellectual cover for every liberal who finds himself inclining toward war but uneasy about Mr. Bush.” Liberal writer Matthew Yglesias in the LA Times also attested to Pollack’s influence:
“Of course, those of us who read Pollack's celebrated 2002 book, “The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq,” and became convinced as a result that the United States needed to . . .invade Iraq in order to dismantle Saddam Hussein's advanced nuclear weapons program (the one he didn't actually have) might feel a little too bitter to once again defer to our betters.”]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Pollack

The breadth and scope of the Second Gulf War so stunned the Middle East that Iran announced it was suspending its nuclear weapons program. Libya shuttered its WMD programs, renounced terrorism and reopened its oil fields to U.S. and European companies.

[rdb3]

I knew who wrote this by the title.

I was right.

[catfish1957]

Nope. Tipped the balance of power in that area to Iran. Now we are having to deal with that. That doesn’t count the overall monetary cost, and most important loss of young lives.

[catfish1957]

Really sad we have had only one good president in the past 50 years. It has become our undoing.

[iopscusa]

Don’t let the erosion/theft of freedom by the lousy CFR members go un-noted either, as war is the lifeblood of the state.

[fredhead]

“If Bush the First had finished the job in 1991, we wouldn’t have had to be back in again.

Never finish wars half way, you just leave a mess for others to clean up later.”

The United States government developed a bad habit of doing just that all throughout the 20th century.

WWI - Instead of pushing the “14 points” America retreated into its own isolationist shell and let the Allies impose the reparations against the Central powers that led to.....

WWII - Patton had it right. We should have taken out the Russians while they were manpower exhausted and our armies were intact. It would have prevented......

Korea - How does a country fight millions of screaming Chinamen?

Vietnam - Another example of “limited war” that did not achieve victory. Was it ever supposed to?

Which brings us back to 1991.

[Capt. Tom]

But it is not that we didn't know about Islam's intentions since before the Crusades. We just choose to ignore the reality of a 'religion' that is evil.

Coincidentally I posted a few minutes ago on another FR thread essentialy the same take as you have.

Muslims have been outspoken in their desires to make Islam dominate the world.
Infidels ignore this, because it means a fight.
Kicking the can down the road is the preferred Infidel option.
Islam isn’t like an illness that will eventually go away.
It is like cancer that is spreading.

[Jim Noble]

I believe in 2008, Iraq had a better than 50% chance of becoming a free, modern, pro-American state.

Why do you believe that?

[FatherofFive]

Infidels ignore this, because it means a fight.

We have fought the muslims, from the shores to tripoli to baghdad. I don't think it is the fact that we don't want a fight as much as we don't want to offend the feelings of people who will behead us. Americans have such a culture of religious freedom that it is hard to believe a religion can be EVIL, and needs to be eradicated if civilization is to survive.

Europe is committing suicide. After repelling the Muslin hordes they ane now letting them walk back in and take over. People who point this out are compared to Hitler.

[Capt. Tom]

Infidels ignore this, because it means a fight.

We have fought the muslims, from the shores to tripoli to baghdad.

I was referring to us present day Infidels. We don't want to face up to the Muslim threat and use every excuse to ignore it, or explain it away.

I have read their texts and have come to the same conclusion and the Wahabbis and Salafis.
You subjugate, convert or kill anyone who is not a Muslim.

Why? Because that is what God (Alah) wants a Muslim to do.
Read the Koran and Hadiths for further clarification and edification. - Tom

[B4Ranch]

When I examine how we as American taxpayers are treating our war veterans, I am ashamed. That is what I use as a focal point on whether fighting a war was worth the cost. Sure, a great many American companies made a lot of money during the war and now all the oil companies are making even more money in Iraq.

We are paying the bills to send illegal aliens to any college they chose to attend but we refuse to do the same for our veterans. So was it worth it? No. The the men and women who came home in pieces can’t even get decent medical care from the VA without a four month delay yet an illegal from a foreign country gets public funds within one week.

We have not fought a single war in 65 years where financial gain was not the primary determining factor in favor of putting American troops on the ground. We need to select a higher moral reason than money when making the decision to send our front line troops into battle.

[FatherofFive]

Read the Koran and Hadiths for further clarification and edification. - Tom

I’ve been posting from their holy terror books for years..

The Koran:

Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter of non-believers...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make them prisoners,"

Sura (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"

Sura (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end

From the Hadith:

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’”

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

The Koran and hadiths are replete with examples of Muhammad's barbaric behavior. Robert Spencer does a good job here explaining Islam - Blogging the Qur’an Start at the bottom.

[B4Ranch]

Koran 8:12 “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. This is because they acted adversely to Allah and his messenger”

Koran 9:5 “When the sacred months are past, kill those who join other gods wherever you find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them with every kind of ambush…..”

Koran 9:29-30 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah…. The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say Christ is the son of God…. Allah’s curse be on them….”

Koran 9:3 “Announce painful punishment on those who disbelieve..”

Koran 8:55 “Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve…”

Koran 8:39 “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah”

Koran 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah… nor follow the religion of truth…out of those who have been given the book (Christians and Jews) until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and are in a state of subjugation”

Koran 9:123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)”

Koran 5:49-51 “O you who believe Take not the Jews and Christians as your friends… and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, surely he is one of them..”

Koran 5:33-34 “The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power..”

[Capt. Tom]

It is difficult if you read the Koran to misunderstand it. In the Koran things are repeated over and over just in case you missed the point the first time.
And since it is the word of God, (Allah) it can't be wrong or modified by man to suit man's ideas of what religion should be all about.
And if you need an example of how to live as a Muslim, and what to do, the Hadiths will show you how Allah's prophet Muhhamed operated.
Maybe it is not the way you would like to live,and not the things you would like to be doing but if you believe in Allah, doing otherwise will send you to hell. - tom

[Liz]

When I examine how we as American taxpayers are treating our war veterans, I am ashamed. We are paying to send law-breaking illegal aliens to any college they choose, but we refuse to do the same for our vets. The men and women who came home in pieces can’t even get decent medical care from the VA without a four month delay------yet an illegal from a foreign country gets public funds within one week....and free medical care, schooling, housing, etc etc etc.

You nailed it precisely.

And the stupids in Congress intend to compound the travesty visited on our vets, by bestowing free-for-all amnesty on illegals whose loyalties are to corrupt Third Worlds----chain amnesty meaning all the fam back home come over to board the US gravy train.

Those who fought and died for us get z-e-r-o.