Posted on 07/20/2011 7:34:04 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Grandstanding? Passing two bills in the House, a real budget that addresses Medicare, and a cut, cap, and balance bill that addresses the short and long term debt of this country is NOT grandstanding. The Dems are the ones who are grandstanding by demagoguing the issues without any kind of plan of their own. They are playing to the crowd and not addressing the issues.
Your "pox on both their houses" nonsense assumes some moral equivalency on the positions and actions of both sides. You are more concerned with style over substance. You are buying into the MSM version of what is happening.
Better to look at least a little “gracious” by getting your way (as in spending cuts and less government) and then getting your way (as in conservative-directed tax reform) and then presenting it as though the other side looks like they got what they wanted (as in perceived generated tax income from that tax reform legislation the conservatives really wanted anyway).
You are asking the Reps to commit political suicide needlessly. I can tell you that as someone who participates in a 40,000 strong state Tea Party movement in a leadership position, any tax increases by the Reps will be met by anger and action. We are not fools who can be easily manipulated by the use of language to disguise what is happening. There is no need to link revenue increases to spending cuts. Those are the Dem talking points.
Now, is THAT so bad? No. Does it make the Tea Party look they lost a little ground? Yes, probably because it would have taken the egg they want off the Democrats face. Would it be the right thing to do though? That’s diplomacy, and that didn’t give an inch on principles at all, I think.
I spent 28 years as a diplomat. There are limits to compromise. The Dems operate on the principles the Soviets used, i.e., "What is mine is mine and what is yours is negotiable." What are the Democrats prepared to compromise? Where is their plan? We have the farcical situation of the Reps negotiating with the Dems over the Rep plan(s). Insane.
Oh don’t get me wrong... I am very proud of the work the Republicans in the House have done. I just don’t think they presented it such a way to get it through to the end.
Also, please do not just spit out general talking points that do not fit because I just wish we could get some conservative legislation through and am concerned it won’t happen or because I am not an academic financial scholar and am getting confused over all the different Republican plans they are putting forth. The first-shelf answer to everything these days seems to be “oh, you listen to the MSM”. I can not tolerate even watching, reading, or listening the MSM.
When our country begins to stand by their principles while caring about PEOPLE, I think we’ll all be a lot better off.
The Democrat Senate and President have put nothing concrete on the table. All they have done is made a bunch of speeches and postured, they have offered nothing specific.
That is what is know in politics as grandstanding.
GOP-real plan, has passed the House. Democrats have done what? Made speeches and postured but done nothing real.
It is not the US House's job to worry what the Senate or the President want them to do. It is the US House's job to create appropriation bills. They have done that. NOW it is the job of the Senate and the President to take action on those bills. Elections matter. The US House is not the rubber stamp of the President and the Senate. If this bill fails now, it is on the heads of the Democrat Senate and the President. They are the one who would rather play politics here instead of putting a plan on the table.
Try reading the US Constitution. Your understanding of how the process works here is woefully inadequate. You seem to believe that the US House is suppose to rubber stamp what ever the Senate and President want. That is NOT their function in the least.
So instead of mindlessly repeating the Democrat media's talking points, try THINKING for yourself for a change.
Caring about people is the duty of the individual or private helping organizations like the Lions club or a local church. It is NOT the duty of the state to "care for people". It is exactly that abrogation of personal responsibility to a state run monster bureaucracy that has created this 14 Trillion debt nightmare. It is not "caring for people" to shackle them to a subsistence level Government hand out so the politicians can keep them a slave voting class trapped into voting for the same corrupt political class year after year out of fear of losing the few scraps from the table the politicians are willing to throw them.
It time to start breaking these chains of political dependency we have been conned into donning the last 100 years and learn to stand on our own two feet.
I am very saddened that I could wish to have good conservative principles being well promoted without people saying “I’m a Democrat” or “listen to the MSM” or that “I don’t think for myself” or that I don’t know the Constitution. I do not believe I told the House to rubber stand anything, and I don’t believe I was trying to change the way the government is set up. I would much rathered some good people here explain some of the things I perhaps don’t understand or (boy, don’t I wish) assure me there IS a way to get some solidly conservative Republican principles through and explain HOW that would happen. That would have made me feel a little better.
I guess I was coming here asking for some conservatives who were smart and bright and optimistic because they knew more than I to help me. I basically ASKED for some help, some info, some encouragement that maybe it WOULD be OK.
Instead, I get thrown into a pot and left to be confused and with fear. Thanks for nothin’.
As I said, when we could start caring more about PEOPLE, perhaps we could get more accomplished.
How should they have presented it? Do you really think the MSM will be objective in using their filter to describe the Rep plan?
Also, please do not just spit out general talking points that do not fit because I just wish we could get some conservative legislation through and am concerned it won’t happen or because I am not an academic financial scholar and am getting confused over all the different Republican plans they are putting forth.
Confused? If you are confused, you are not making any attempt to inform yourself. Go to the primary source material using the Internet. It is not difficult.
The first-shelf answer to everything these days seems to be “oh, you listen to the MSM”. I can not tolerate even watching, reading, or listening the MSM.
If the shoe fits, wear it. Your comments sound like MSM and Dem talking points. Somehow, they seem to be having an effect on your views. "Can't we all just get along?" I notice you never respond to my questions about what the Dems should compromise on or their lack of a plan. You seem to buy into the MSM/Dem argument that all sides have to compromise and that the solution should be "balanced," i.e., there should be additional revenue in the form of new taxes.
When our country begins to stand by their principles while caring about PEOPLE, I think we’ll all be a lot better off.
Once you get passed such bromides, you must have real policies and solutions. They are going to be painful. "Caring about PEOPLE" sounds like more redistribution of wealth crap and the expansion of the welfare state that got us into our current state. We can't afford such "caring" without destroying the country and any future for our children and grandchildren.
Wow, start reading more before you reply.
No one at my computer here ever even started talking about social programs. It might serve you better to read first and THEN stick your foot in your mouth. LOL
My same response as I gave to MSJonnie. There was never any spoken word of social issues here until you two brought it up. Is is so much to ask for a little wisdom and insight here, maybe more so ask for ENCOURAGEMENT and be respected while doing so, or should we all just attempt to be mean and rude to one another, even those who are on your VERY SIDE? As I said, it is really just sad. I asked for a nice conversation with some insight from what I thought would be fellow conservatives. I got lambasted. I’m not sorry I asked. I’m just sorry I got the uncaring, elitist responses I did.
Social issues? I have no idea what you are talking about. I have asked you a number of specific questions, which you refuse to address or answer. It is hard to have a dialogue with someone who prefers to have a one-way conversation. You really are confused.
Kabar,
I apologize I did not answer your questions. I did not realize they were actually questions you wanted answered and took them as questions you were raising to 1. make your points and 2. tell me what you thought of what I was saying.
So, knowing you want answers from me, I will try to find the questions you wanted me to actually answer.
Question 1. How should they have presented it?
Answer 1. I don’t know. That is why I brought the situation up here in hopes of discussion. However, I don’t think just writing something, saying na na na na boo boo, then letting what they did simply get lost is the best way.
If I could come close to knowing at least one improvement, I would like to have seen some more positive public exposure about the good in the House plan coming from the Republicans instead of hearing so much talk about the last election and the next election. I felt too much Republican expression was about who won last time and who wins next time. I would rather have heard Republicans act as if they believed in what they did without having to have everything connected with parties getting elected.
Also with this, I don’t sense much of any cooperation between House Republicans and Senate Republicans. How can the House Republican plans be looked at seriously when even the Republican Senators can not seem to back their ideas, making their own plans that could undermine what the House Republicans have tried to stand for? Maybe there ARE Republican Senators who hold to the same ideals, but as a common citizen who doesn’t know these people personally, it just appears as if what the House did would not only be battered in the MSM, it is not getting hailed by Republican Senators and in fact. I am not talking specifics but even just ideals. I would like to see some Republican Senators standing up and being more vocal with the right things that are coming out of the House.
How really should they present it? How about with confidence in the ideals and good work without tying it to elections (not all did that, just enough to make that an issue for me). I would also have liked to have had a little more information about how the House and Senate Republicans were working towards similar goals. As confusing as it is for us normal folk with everyone coming out with something different, I simply don’t know who is doing what.
OK, you have your first answer which basically is “I don’t know. That’s why I asked”.
Question 2. Do you really think the MSM will be objective in using their filter to describe the Rep plan?
Answer 2. No. The MSM doesn’t cover much of anything objectively and in fact, in my opinion, can not be trusted for ANYTHING. Someone here accused me of being swayed by the MSM. I don’t know how that could be. I read only conservative news online and some conservative commentators online and listen to a little conservative radio. I do watch Fox News although I know even Fox does not cover things conservatively a lot of time and only watch it so I can have SOME kind of visual at times. I usually get my news from WND, a little from Nesxmas, and most from Free Republic. Quite frankly, I won’t even put my faith in Free Republic. I never know when there are trolls on there just making trouble (which, coincidentally, helps me to be forgiving of the quick damnation you and another gave me here on this thread... I KNOW it is hard to trust who is on here and can never know why they say something... knowing sometimes it is just to make trouble. I’m sure it is easy to just put everyone into the troll category when so many are around. Unfortunately, that was done unfairly to me, but still, I understand and am forgiving of it in this instance because I know how easy it is to do.
Do I believe the MSM will cover this fairly... No. And I’ll add my own questions with this one. Do I believe they will make the Republicans look bad? They will try. Do I believe they misrepresent things? Yes. And take this question.... Do I believe ANY of them cover things fairly? My answer to that: As Ronald Regan said, trust but verify. Well quite frankly, I just think it’s best to just verify.
Question 3 (I guess it was a question). Confused? If you are confused, you are not making any attempt to inform yourself. Go to the primary source material using the Internet. It is not difficult.
Answer 3. Yes, I am confused. I have House Republicans doing one thing and Senate Republicans doing another. I can’t tell if there is any common ground there. Yes I AM confused as to these various plans too. That’s something I hoped might come out of friendly debates here... or friendly observations... or friendly clarifications. But then again, I should know better than friendly from many people. I have been on FR since... oh, I think it was 2005. I used to contribute articles quite a bit, not lurking. I used to comment and way back in the day.... We would get to work finding other separate articles and post them within threads to help each other get informed. We were either in agreement, some agreement, questioned, or debated, but it was not so much personal attacks as it was intellectually working with one another. It was awesome.
I know things have changed, and maybe I should have known better, but I was so confused that I came to the source I remembered as having people who cared enough to do research and think about things. It was better too that many of them shared my same conservative ideals. I was hoping for some h-e-l-p here, not coming so I could be told to go think on my own (oh yea, but that I couldn’t do that anyway).
Let me share something with you. I’m not too stupid, but it’s not easy for me. I was able to work hard and get a bachelors degree from a college, and I graduated from high school with honors, but I have a 40 IQ, yep, considered a moron, and I have a really, REALLY hard time reading things. I DO try to read, and for what should have been of me, I do really well. The only thing I can think is that I live by the grace of God who allows me to be something more than might have really been. If I get confused with something and come to a group (FR) I feel would have some conservatives among the trolls and some who might help me see things a little better, I don’t think that was wrong, and I DON’T think you should have shoved me off like you did.
I have contributed here, not SO much in recent history but I have contributed, and I have helped others understand issues. I was hoping someone might help me, not call me names and put me in a box with people I am nothing like and do not agree with politically.
By the way, I did REALLY appreciate your mention that it was not the Senate’s work, or the work of the House, to do the work of the other part or of the White House. Those were not your words exactly but close I believe.
Now THAT was the kind of insight I was hoping to find here. That was the wisdom I needed. It helped SO much to be reminded that each part has their own part to play and that it will work out in the end through it all.
Hey kabar, I sure would have liked more of that, but I did want you to know that really helped me feel better about things.
Question 4. It is not that difficult (speaking of finding info for myself).
Answer 4. Sometimes it is.
Question 5. I notice you never respond to my questions about what the Dems should compromise on or their lack of a plan.
Answer 5. I don’t know if the Dems will compromise on anything quite frankly, but personally I agree that the Republicans have the power right now. I just don’t know how then anyone will get ANYTHING done when the Dems don’t compromise and the Republican plans all go up in smoke. (Not that they aren’t good. They just go up in smoke.) I just don’t know where it goes from here. Would you like to share some insight as to where it goes or what happens when there is a stalemate like that? I really would like to know how it could end at all.
Question 6. You seem to buy into the MSM/Dem argument that all sides have to compromise and that the solution should be “balanced,” i.e., there should be additional revenue in the form of new taxes.
Answer 6. I never mentioned ANYONE compromising. I don’t think anyone will. Neither side. Now again, I wonder how we get anywhere when that happens.
I am SO glad we finally have a Republican party who is willing to stand up for conservative values, and I would like them to not budge one bit from fiscally conservative values... I hope they stay strong on socially conservative values as well, however, we are talking money things here. I hope they stay strong on fiscally conservative values, and that includes no increases on taxes, which I’m not sure where you got either since I never mentioned THAT either. Again though, my question is, what happens when Republicans stand firm and Dems don’t do a thing? It would seem like no one ends up being able to do a thing. Am I wrong on that? I sure would like to know how that all works out...
Question 7. We can’t afford such “caring” without destroying the country and any future for our children and grandchildren.
Answer 7. kabar, THAT is where I got your social issues blame game. That and the other gentleman who said our country can’t afford to care about other people and also when the other gentleman said it’s the individuals and churches who care about others. Well both your comment (future of our children) and his comment sound VERY much like you are speaking of social issues.
Let me answer your accusation this way. “Thinking about people”, in the FIRST instance, meant having the politicians do the right thing for our country, and STANDING for the right thing, just because it IS the right thing and not because they are trying to look good for the next election (which I believe would cause some to do some actions unbecoming to their position) and “thinking about people” in the next references meant being kind to one another... like helping someone that comes to you on FB understand something without immediately labeling them, talking down to them, talking themselves up, and getting no where in it all.
Boy, I sure would have loved it if you could have shared some of that incredible knowledge you must have, and to have thrown in some wisdom like the little bit I mentioned above would have been the nice thing to do for someone.
When I held the ideal of “caring about people” up, something that should cost our government NOTHING AT ALL, I was accused me of trying to sell social issues here when all wanted was someone to speak nicely here and to engage in invigorating conversation that might help me feel there really COULD be a good ending here.
When I held the value of “caring about people” up, something that we used to be taught was the polite thing to do, I was accused of some sort of ‘one size fits all or MAKE it fit all” mentality. Let me tell you, when our daughter began Girl Scouts years ago (which I didn’t want anyway and soon learned for sure why), we quickly took her out when her little Brownie troop couldn’t give individual prizes based on the numbers of cookies sold because “it would make someone else who didn’t do anything feel bad”. I felt that was wrong and did not approve of not having incentives for people who worked hard. I am NOT in the fold you tried to place me in, and I can’t see how asking for some help here and giving a little of my own thoughts (which are EXTREMELY conservative if you didn’t read into things and make things up about me), would make me anything other than a person to engage in polite conversation with.
WHAT WOULD THAT COST? I don’t think it would cost your children or grandchildren a thing.
As the other poster who seemed to be hand in hand with you in this thread mentioned... It’s the individual and the churches whose responsibility it is to care about people. Well, did WE just pass that test as individuals?
And to think, caring about people here would not have cost the people one dime. And... it would be priceless to have a nicer message board with nicer people to talk to... ones that are not so bent on showing their own power or greatness that they forget about the humans that are on the other side of the screen... (or maybe even on the other side of the aisle). I just said that last thing to make you mad again, lol. (Just kidding)
Any more questionsk? I’m not afraid to answer more! :)
I would also still GREATLY appreciate any insight you might have to help me understand if there is any hope for anything at all to happen... believing no one is going to budge and believing the Democrats will not come up with anything and believing that Obama will veto anything the Republicans come up with. Is there any hope of seeing anything at ALL now happen, or will we just stay in this limbo?
For all I have said, I do believe you have a good understanding of this, and I would still like to be a recipient of the knowledge you seem to have. Can you make this feel a little better? Can we think SOMETHING might come from this other than setting up where everyone stands?
Unless you just want to ask me more questions. I’ll answer them. :)
PS, Just so you know... I was also a stay at home home schooling mom because I would not let the government take that away from me. Conservative enough yet for you?
Oh, and I would LOVE a two way conversation by the way.
Start TALKING instead of accusing. I would love to hear from you and learn from you! I think that would be a good start to a two way conversation too.
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