We’re in a Bubble and It’s Not the Internet. It’s Higher Education.

Dear Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus,

I see that you've failed to say precisely what is my "uninformed opinion," as opposed to the actual information that I present that can be independently verified.

I've told you where to go get information for yourself, rather than rely on my word.

What does it say that you're unwilling to look for yourself, to examine the evidence firsthand for yourself? It's easy enough to do. Takes a few minutes per school.

It appears that you're just not interested in actual facts, but would rather scaremonger an issue about which you clearly have no current direct knowledge.

You may credit me with nothing, but I'm dealing with the issue currently. My son, a high school junior, is (thankfully) academically in the category of those who have a reasonable chance of success to get into an Ivy League school. Thus, we've had to do the homework.

So, while you may credit me with nothing, I credit YOU with less, as the trash that you're spouting is at odds with what I know firsthand, speaking with actual admissions counselors and financial aid folks, and having actually investigated for myself the question, “If my kid gets admitted to one of these schools, will I be able to afford it?”

I'll take my actual knowledge over your scaremongering every day of the week.

I don't post to persuade you. You display entirely vincible ignorance.

I post so that others with bright kids aren't discouraged from having them apply to Ivy League and other prestigious schools due to concerns over finances.

The bad news is - the Ivies take less than one out of 10 kids who apply. Your kid has to be really on the ball just to have a reasonable chance at success in applying.

But the good news is - if your kid gets admitted, it will be cheaper than sending him to most other colleges, excepting in-state tuition at state colleges. Unless you're in the top 1% income bracket or have seven figures in available financial assets outside of equity in your home or in qualified retirement accounts.

sitetest

You seem to be averse to dealing in verifiable, objective data, as to your own opinions, buttressed by articles that offer half-truths.

No, what I'm adverse to are people on websites who think I'm supposed to take them seriously, just because they want to assert their opinions as if they are facts, and who somehow or another think they know more than people, like Mr. Thiel, who have a proven track record of actually knowing what they're talking about.

This is especially the case when the individual in question (hint: this would be you), is apparently too dumb, or has too poor of reading skills, to notice what was actually being discussed, which was not so much the cost of an Ivy League education, but the value of one, and whether the Ivies are really all they are cracked up to be, as far as turning out quality graduates in proportion to the supposed value based upon the name of the school.

The reason I didn't bother to look up about financial aid to Ivy League schools is mainly because I don't care about that subject, as it is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion I was having with other thread members.

However, all of my statements are correct, w.r.t. getting into Harvard.

For instance, there are scads of students out there who have the grades and work ethic to theoretically get into Harvard, but who won't be considered for financial aid, and hence won't get in. THis is true, regardless of the fact that you may know a few upper middle class kids who get financial aid. You're committing a part-whole fallacy.

Likewise, there really is a "Harvard number" that rich parents can pay that gets their marginal, didn't-work-as-hard-as-the-others kid off the waiting list and into a slot in the upcoming freshman class (which, btw, helps to bump another one of these financial aid kids who put in the effort)

Frankly, my comments that Harvard is not about an actual education, but about getting the Harvard name onto your resumé stands - only an idiot would deny it. The problem with that is that we're increasing seeing a "ruling class" turned out that is increasingly being populated by putzes and playboys.

Dear Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus,

“No, what I'm adverse to are people on websites who think I'm supposed to take them seriously, just because they want to assert their opinions as if they are facts,...”

Having repeatedly asked you specifically about which “opinions” you were referring, and receiving back little but ignorant condescension from you, I'm glad now that you're engaging with a trifle more substance.

Thanks.

“This is especially the case when the individual in question (hint: this would be you), is apparently too dumb, or has too poor of reading skills, to notice what was actually being discussed, which was not so much the cost of an Ivy League education, but the value of one, and whether the Ivies are really all they are cracked up to be, as far as turning out quality graduates in proportion to the supposed value based upon the name of the school.”

I actually alluded to that when I said that going to Ivy League schools is much about the doors they will open. Reading comprehension is our friend.

I only disagreed about the putative costs of such an education, as Mr. Thiel writes that an Ivy League education costs $50+K per year, and then states, it may not be worth the cost.

Thus, he is begging the question - assuming the premise that as part of his conclusion - that an Ivy League education costs $50K or more per year. My only point has been that, for the vast majority of applicants, it doesn't.

In fact, for most applicants, the cost of an Ivy League education will likely be less than that of most other schools other than in-state state schools.

If you're complaining about the value of the education, it helps to get the cost right.

“The reason I didn't bother to look up about financial aid to Ivy League schools is mainly because I don't care about that subject, as it is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion I was having with other thread members.”

As I pointed out, if you don't get your cost data correct, it's difficult to assess the value equation.

“For instance, there are scads of students out there who have the grades and work ethic to theoretically get into Harvard, but who won't be considered for financial aid, and hence won't get in. THis is true, regardless of the fact that you may know a few upper middle class kids who get financial aid. You're committing a part-whole fallacy.”

You have it backwards. Actually, Harvard (and the other Ivies) have far more fully-qualified applicants than they can accept. But the Ivies are need-blind in their admissions policies. Your application is either accepted or rejected before they look at your financial need. This is their written policy. Oops, sorry for introducing another fact. Many fully-qualified applicants will be turned away. As a result of not being accepted, obviously, they won't be formally offered financial aid. However, Harvard (and all the selective schools to which we've talked) are more than happy to sit down and give you a pretty close idea of how much financial aid your kid will get - if he has some shot at acceptance. But, you wouldn't expect Harvard to provide financial aid to folks not accepted, would you?

"THis is true, regardless of the fact that you may know a few upper middle class kids who get financial aid."

The truth is that most folks who go to Harvard get financial aid. In fact, for the last year reported, which I believe was for the incoming freshman class of 2010-2011, fully 70% of incoming freshmen at Harvard received financial aid, and the average award was about $40K. Is this my opinion? No. It's what you can find on their website, and what I've been told, both in large groups and personally, by Harvard admissions and financial aid personnel.

For someone actually interested in facts rather than opinions, one would learn, if he made any effort at all, that Harvard essentially charges just about nothing for folks with household AGI of $60K or less, and provides financial aid to approximately 100% of families with AGI of $180K, and some financial aid to some families making over $200K.

The heaviest financial aid to the Ivies begins to phase out around an AGI of $180K and by somewhere around a quarter million in annual AGI, most folks get no financial aid.

Now this may be a cause of concern for folks like Mr. Thiel, as I understand he is very wealthy. In fact, if his offspring were to go to Harvard, he might very well get hit up for the "Harvard Number."

And he may legitimately not wish to pay over $200K (or perhaps, $5.2 million) for one of his children to go to Harvard.

But that isn't what most families who send their children to Harvard actually face.

You need to actually get some facts, not your - or Mr. Thiel's - opinions - the large majority of folks at Harvard get financial aid, and the financial aid packages bring the four-year cost of Harvard down to about $50K - $60K.

Which is less than what many state schools costs, if you're living on campus, and not a lot more than many state schools, if you're in-state and commuting.

The argument that an Ivy education may not be work $200K doesn't apply if most folks are paying more like $50 - $60K.

By the way, I hate to throw another fact at you, but the Ivies no longer make student loans part of their award packages. You may, if you wish, privately finance the part of your college costs that aren't covered by your financial aid package, but if Harvard or Princeton gives you $40K in aid, none of it is student loans.

“Likewise, there really is a “Harvard number” that rich parents can pay that gets their marginal, didn't-work-as-hard-as-the-others kid off the waiting list and into a slot in the upcoming freshman class (which, btw, helps to bump another one of these financial aid kids who put in the effort)”

I didn't disagree with this. Although I don't have personal knowledge of this, it seems reasonable that the school sets aside some slots each year to accommodate students and families like this. But, as I posted previously, Harvard's median 50% SAT and high school GPAs of kids who actually matriculate strongly suggest that we're talking about a small number of folks each. The average SAT for incoming freshmen at Harvard is about 2200 - 2250 (median 50% is on the order of 2100 - 2380, or thereabouts - but I hate to interject so many facts into this issue, as you appear to be allergic to them). But at $5 million a piece, one doesn't need too many folks paying the "Harvard Number" to really help expand the ol' endowment.

Even a hundred out of the approximately 1800 students admitted annually would yield half a billion bucks. But I already said that previously.

“Frankly, my comments that Harvard is not about an actual education, but about getting the Harvard name onto your resumé stands - only an idiot would deny it. The problem with that is that we're increasing seeing a ‘ruling class’ turned out that is increasingly being populated by putzes and playboys.”

If you had actually read my posts, you would see that I actually agree that an Ivy League school is about opening doors. Which comes from - reputation, contacts made. My son is considering two Ivies as well as several other schools, and I've told him that the question he has to ask himself is whether building a Rolodex that will help him throughout his lifetime is an important goal of his college education. That is absolutely a big part of what an Ivy education is about.

The problem you have is that you don't understand that the vast majority of kids getting into these schools have top grades, top test scores, and top resumes. Most of these kids are tireless workers. I've seen resumes of kids who get into these schools, and I wonder how they manage to do all they do. I look at my own son, with top scores, top grades, and a fair bit of extracurricular stuff, and I see him getting up at 5:40 am each morning and getting to bed by 10 pm each evening, going to school 35 hours per week and averaging another 20 hours of homework each week, and then adding extracurriculars on top. It's these kids who typically get admitted to the Ivies. They aren't generally from a fixed “ruling class,” and they're seldom putzes or playboys.

There are other legitimate criticisms to be made about who is picked to go to these schools, but you haven't actually hit on any of them.

And that's a fact, LOL.

Be well.

sitetest

there's the rub. Everyone talks about "going Galt..." but when it costs something, fuggeddaboudit.

I walked away from MIT a long time ago. Can't begin to calculate what that cost in my field. Less than my soul, I'm pretty sure.

I know what you mean. I'm in the process of trying to set myself up to exit the pharmaceutical industry on my terms, rather than it leaving me when it all ends up going over to India or China.

I kinda think that we need to "go Galt" on the current higher education system, with its emphasis on getting a piece of paper to serve as a "credential," but which often times fails to really, truly educate young people beyond the "memorise this, and regurgitate it on the test" mentality.

Of course, a lot of the groundwork for that failure is lain in the public secondary education system....

What I would love to see is a system based more on actual merit, one where businesses stop looking for whether a potential new hire has a piece of paper from a diploma mill, and start looking to see what actual skills and qualifications the applicant has. I'd even go for a strictly "class" based system, where your higher education consists of taking specific courses, not to fill a curricula and graduate with enough electives to get that paper passport, but to actually build up a valuable skill set that would actually be useful in the real world.

You can't imagine how many graduates in the sciences that I have encountered over the years - including a fair number of Ph.Ds - have been putzes who were in way over their heads.

Keep in mind - all this that I am writing is not "sour grapes" by someone who never went to school, or went to a rinky-dink fifth tier no-name school, and is jealous of those who went to "better schools." My graduate level degree in chemistry is from one of the top-ten ranked graduate programs in the country.

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