Can Google Swallow Apple? (Google is going after the iPad market)

Wow, several smart phone models from many of the largest phone manufactures in the world, on most of the cellular networks in the world, combined are outselling one phone from one manufacturer restricted to only a few cellular networks. Serious surprise there. Not.

# 1. No one is stopping Apple from selling their OS to anybody in the smartphone business, same as nobody ever stopped Apple from selling their OS to others in the desktop computer business. They can't turn round and complain that "but, but, we only sell a phone from one manufacturer".
# 2. Apple can sell as many models of the iPhone as they want. Nothing is stopping them.
# 3. Android is not the only OS that HTC, Sasmsung, LG etc are making smartphones with. They have plenty of other smartphone OS’s. Andriod is just one of them. For Android to rocket up in sales out of all these other OS’s that these firms are using, then go on and beat the iPhone as well, after only a very short time on the market..that is very impressive.

“You downplayed their market in order to pump up Google’s accomplishment. ‘

Downplayed nothing.
I pointed out that Samsung, LG etc have never had any high market share in smartphones before. Ever.
They still don't.
At the same time LG and Samsung have been using Symbian for years, long before Andriod appeared on the market.
Those just happen to be FACTS.
And they are not mutually exclusive either. They are complimentary.

“Then when it's convenient, you state how far they were in to smart phones. You can't have it both ways.’

"Both ways" nuthin;. Samsung having used Symbian long before Android, and the same Samsung never having had a high smartphone market share, are two perfectly valid statements. One doesn't invalidate the other.
You'd better go for a lesson in logic.
You are making about as much sense as a plank of wood.

Worldwide, mainly because of Nokia.

Nokia is not a valid smart phone maker?

“As I said, manufacturers are dumping Symbian for Android. That's a lot of fast marketshare."

Most Symbian smartphone sales were on Nokia smartphones anyways. It's not like they are losing much if LG decides to stop making Symbian smartphones.
Symbian will prosper or not depending on Noika.

” No manufacturer dumped any OS for the iPhone OS — Apple had to take actual sales away from the established dominant phone manufacturers in order to get its market share”

Apple didn't have to fight with plenty of other smartphone OS’s for the business of LG, Samsung , HTC either, because Apple controls their own hardware and software. Google had to fight their way through a mass of OS’s(including other Linux smartphone OS’s), to get the attention and the business of these phone makers. That is much harder to do.

Nokia is not a valid smart phone maker?

Valid. Not relevant to the US market though. Still, the only major manufacturer besides RIM and Apple I can think of who hasn't picked up Android, sending it to a quick marketshare gain.

Most Symbian smartphone sales were on Nokia smartphones anyways.

Not my point. Sony and others are dumping Symbian for Android, meaning people who buy those brands will now get Android -- quick marketshare gain again.

Apple didn't have to fight with plenty of other smartphone OS’s for the business of LG, Samsung , HTC either, because Apple controls their own hardware and software.

Not much to fight for. Windows Mobile has been sucking big-time for a while, and costs money. Manufacturers probably couldn't wait to get off. RIM isn't selling its OS. Symbian is getting a bit long in the tooth, and as you know has been tightly controlled by competitor Nokia for a while now. No generally available Linux smartphone OS has taken off so far, lumped in with that couple-percent "all others" category. Along comes Google with a reasonably good phone OS that's free, backed by a multi-billion dollar company so longevity is fairly assured, and it is the best copy of the successful iPhone OS and ecosystem so far. It's a no-brainer.

Not relevant to the US market though

You keep saying that. The US is but a small percentage of the worldwide cell phone market, and the US share is shrinking fast as more Chinese and Indians (combined population of over 2.5 billion humans) get cell phones.

“Sony and others are dumping Symbian for Android, meaning people who buy those brands will now get Android — quick market share gain again.”

If Sony accounted for but a tiny percentage of Symbian smart phone sales(and they did), what the heck difference does it make to Symbian’s market share whether Sony stop selling Symbian phones or not?

” meaning people who buy those brands will now get Android — quick marketshare gain again.’

Most Android market share gains have come largely from Win Mo and the other Linux smartphone OS’s(the other Linux smartphones had a pretty solid combined market share before).

“Not much to fight for.’

Of course there was.

” Windows Mobile has been sucking big-time for a while, and costs money”

There were plenty of other Linux smartphone OS versions, that had managed to get a fair bit of market share as far back as 2007, when I was having a look at market share figures, and they cost next to nothing as well, yet Android came and took 'em out.

Blah, blah, blah, and then this gem:

Most Android market share gains have come largely from Win Mo and the other Linux smartphone OS’s(the other Linux smartphones had a pretty solid combined market share before).

Linux was only really popular in Asia, never getting 10% IIRC.

There were plenty of other Linux smartphone OS versions, that had managed to get a fair bit of market share as far back as 2007

Before Apple and Android, RIM, Microsoft and Symbian were almost the whole market worldwide for individual makers, with Palm and a smattering of mobile Linux solutions comprising the rest. Remember, Linux isn't one mobile OS. It's a bunch of different solutions from multiple vendors, of which Android is one (another thing I noted helped Google -- there were already mobile Linux solutions out there to take from).

Linux was only really popular in Asia, never getting 10% IIRC”

That was a heck of a lot higher market share than the iPhone’s market share at the time.

“Before Apple and Android, RIM, Microsoft and Symbian were almost the whole market worldwide for individual makers, with Palm and a smattering of mobile Linux solutions comprising the rest”

In Q3 2007, Linux had a bigger worldwide market share than the iPhone and Win Mo combined, and a bigger market share than RIM as well. And that was long before Android even launched.
http://mobilephonedevelopment.com/archives/507

“Remember, Linux isn't one mobile OS. It's a bunch of different solutions from multiple vendors, of which Android is one (another thing I noted helped Google — there were already mobile Linux solutions out there to take from).’

That's precisely why Linux had a pretty substantial market share. From adding all the various versions of Linux together.

I have often attacked Google for their 0bama support(Google CEO actually campaigned for 0bama), their attempts to stifle free speech of conservatives like Michelle Malkin, their 95% contribution to Democrats, their far left politics etc etc.
On the other hand, in the smartphone war, I gotta back Android over the iPhone because of Steve Jobs’s bullying tactics against Adobe which really annoys me.
Sure Jobs is great businessman, and one of the best CEO’s in this country right now, but that doesn't mean he is always right on the issues.
As for HTC, they have no alternative but to fight Apple, because Apple is trying to essentially use the courts to put HTC out of business. It's a good thing, HTC has now licensed all of Microsoft's patents. That will give HTC plenty of ammo to effectively fight Apple in the courts.

I gotta back Android over the iPhone because of Steve Jobs’s bullying tactics against Adobe which really annoys me.

Being an iPhone owner who can't access Flash material I'm annoyed as well, but that doesn't inspire me to back a communist clone like Linux to become the predominant smartphone O/S. Why not just run Windows Mobile instead, which runs Flash material just fine?

HTC has now licensed all of Microsoft's patents. That will give HTC plenty of ammo to effectively fight Apple in the courts.

Huh? The admission by HTC that they need to license Microsoft's patents for their Linux to remain legal somehow means they don't need to license Apple's as well? FYI Apple was building operating systems before Microsoft was ever involved in the industry, if anything their patents are likely older and even more wide-ranging than Microsoft's, not to mention Apple's new patents specifically protecting the iPhone's behavior that Android has specifically duplicated.

Why not just run Windows Mobile instead, which runs Flash material just fine?

Win Mo is runs Flash and has cut and paste, multitasking etc, is fine by me, as long long as Win Phone 7 delivers (and it seems it will). I merely said, I am backing Android over the iPhone, not against Win Mo or anyone else.

“The admission by HTC that they need to license Microsoft's patents for their Linux to remain legal somehow means they don't need to license Apple's as well?”

No.
Because Microsoft has some really significant touch screen technology/smart phone patents, some of which predate those of Apple. This cross licensing gives HTC plenty of weapons to fight Apple in court.

“FYI Apple was building operating systems before Microsoft was ever involved in the industry, if anything their patents are likely older and even more wide-ranging than Microsoft's”

No.
Microsoft has been building smart phone operating systems long before Apple did, and has plenty patents to fight Apple any day, if Apple wants a fight.
Microsoft just happens to have vastly more patents than Apple does:

Survey: Microsoft Holds Top Patent Portfolio for 2008
For the second year in a row, Microsoft has topped the rankings in IEEE Spectrum’s annual patent scorecard, which uses a series of factors to measure the health of a company’s “patent pipeline.”

REDMOND, Wash., Jan. 2, 2009 — The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers’ (IEEE) annual Patent Scorecard, released in December 2008, gave Microsoft the top score among all categories. This is the second consecutive year Microsoft has topped the list.

IEEE’s Patent “Pipeline Power” ranking takes a number of factors into account, including the number of patents held, year-over-year portfolio growth, the variety of technologies influenced and the number of times a company’s patents are cited in the patent applications of other inventors

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/jan09/01-02ieeerating.mspx

Microsoft’s Patent Portfolio Dwarfs Rivals’ IP The company was granted 2,918 patents in the US in 2009 By Marius Oiaga, Technology News Editor

March 19th, 2010, 16:16 GMT
A strong and committed strategy of investments is paying off for Microsoft which is outpacing rivals in the race to build innovation by a landslide. The Redmond company’s patent portfolio topped, for the third year in a row, a ranking put together by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE). And software giant is showing no signs of stopping. As a matter of fact, for 2010, Microsoft pledged no less than $9.5 billion to fuel its research and development efforts. It looks like the company is getting rather cozy at the top of IEEE’s, having settled in, and is not keen on leaving the position anytime soon.

“These consistently high marks from experts in the industry signify that Microsoft’s focus on high-quality patent protection is working. Microsoft invests more than $9 billion annually in research and development, and the innovations that result from that R&D commitment are directly related to the quality of our patents. We’ve expanded our patent filings in recent years to match the accelerating pace of breakthrough technology developed at Microsoft, and these filings are closely aligned with our strategic business goals,” revealed Bart Eppenauer, chief patent counsel.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-s-Patent-Portfolio-Dwarfs-Rivals-IP-137976.shtml
We'll see in court won't we?

Many different implementations from many different vendors added up to that marketshare

That's exactly what I have been saying all along. You were the one that thought Linux market share in smartphones back at the time, was insignificant. It was significant enough to beat the market shares of Win Mo and the iPhone combined in 2007.

“Not a great accomplishment for any one.”

Good enough accomplishment for the Linux OS in smartphones. Plus Andriod is now mopping up the market shares of the various Linux versions, giving Andriod a great apps market, polishing up the OS, putting vastly more money behind it with relentless and aggresive marketing (which the various Linux OS's lacked before), and increasing their market share.

“And that's worldwide, mainly in asia as manufacturers rolled their own.”

You just keep saying that.
That's like saying “its mainly on the planet”. Earth to “antiRepublicrat”, China and India alone account for nearly 40% of the earth's population. We haven't even added in countries with huge populations like Indonesia and the Philippines yet, plus the world's second largest economy, Japan yet. As far as cell phones are concerned, the Asian market is where it's at in terms of sheer volume.
It's the US market share that is going to be increasingly smaller, because the US only has 300 million people in it, that's one quarter of China's population. There are more cell phone subscribers in China right now, than there are humans in America, and that's just for starters. The Chinese market is set to explode even further because there are still hundreds of millions of Chinese who still don't have cell phones yet.

“I see two great accomplishments in phone. RIM, coming from a tiny company to dominate the NA smart phone market. Somewhat less is Apple, entering the market and grabbing lots of marketshare very fast.”

The most impressive is Google Android, coming from nowhere to beat the iPhone in the US in a very short time, and now set to beat RIM and take the # 1 spot in the US some time next year at the most.

I am backing Android over the iPhone, not against Win Mo or anyone else.

Which, as I indicated, doesn't add up, as Android doesn't currently run Flash any better than the iPhone does.

This cross licensing gives HTC plenty of weapons to fight Apple in court.

Your repeated assertions that a cross licensing agreement means you get to use the other party's patents in litigation against someone else is comical, but the lack of understanding is rather typical for a Linux proponent. FYI there is actually a consortium of patents put together by IBM to supposedly defend Linux whenever it's attacked, but has so far conspicuously been a no-show.

Microsoft has been building smart phone operating systems long before Apple did, and has plenty patents to fight Apple any day, if Apple wants a fight.

Actually Apple signed a cross licensing agreement with Microsoft immediately after Steve Jobs returned to Apple, it was specifically mentioned in his speech of the new direction of Apple. Here in the present Android is a bigger clone of the iPhone than anything Microsoft currently has, with Linux being a direct clone of the UNIX O/S that Apple uses, but much more important in the lawsuit is the similarity to the iPhone interface. Hey if you want to clone UNIX and Apple's UI, you can, just don't expect you're going to be able to to for free, especially when you're admitting you owe Microsoft patent protection money when that's not even the platform you're copying.

You were the one that thought Linux market share in smartphones back at the time, was insignificant.

It was insignificant in the US. Basically irrelevant, practically didn't even exist here until the last 8 months or so.

It was significant enough to beat the market shares of Win Mo and the iPhone combined in 2007.

But again it was completely non-existent in the US. So what if you were second place in China and Japan, many folks over there purposefully avoid US-based operating systems on principle. If you want to also that's your right, but don't expect everyone else over on this side of the Pacific to fall in line just because you're #2 over in China.

Which, as I indicated, doesn't add up, as Android doesn't currently run Flash any better than the iPhone does

The new Android 2.2 Aroyo does, and Google has not gone about trashing or bullying Adobe. Apple has.
Google is in fact actively pushing Flash:

Google to push Adobe Flash with Android 2.2 update
http://dailybreaknews.com/google-to-push-adobe-flash-with-android-2-2-update/06305

“Your repeated assertions that a cross licensing agreement means you get to use the other party's patents in litigation against someone else is comical, but the lack of understanding is rather typical for a Linux proponen”

# 1. I am not a Linux proponent. I am a Windows proponent, especially Windows 7. Check my posts. I just happen to be backing Android against the iPhone because of Steve Job's nasty war on Flash.
# 2. Apple's lawsuit is against HTC for so-called similarities with the iPhone, not with Linux.
# 3. Microsoft's cross licesninhg with HTC was in direct response to Apple’s lawsuit against HTC, to protect Microsoft's own Win Mo smart phones from HTC, and give HTC plenty of amo against Apple when the case goes to court. Microsoft happens to have a vast arsenal of patents, including patents for touch screen technology on smartphones that predate any patents Apple ever had for the technology.

Apple is going to have a very tough fight on their hands.
In fact HTC is so confident that they have just launched a slew of counter-suits against Apple recently, including this one:

HTC Files Complaint Against Apple Over Patents
By NICK BILTON

REUTERS/Pichi Chuang

HTC, the Taiwanese electronics manufacturer, filed a complaint with the United States International Trade Commission in Washington on Wednesday asking for a ban on imports of Apple’s iPhone, iPad and iPod products into the United States.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/htc-files-complaint-against-apple-over-patents/

Two can play at the game.

“ Here in the present Android is a bigger clone of the iPhone than anything Microsoft currently has, with Linux being a direct clone of the UNIX O/S that Apple uses, but much more important in the lawsuit is the similarity to the iPhone interface”

Ummm....Apple doesn't own the patents for touch screen interface.

Microsoft awarded Patent for using Touch Screen Mobile Device as a ...
http://www.thewindowsclub.com/microsoft-awarded-patent-for-using-touch-screen-mobile-device

HTC Files Complaint Against Apple Over Patents
The complaint says that Apple has violated five of HTC’s patents related to mobile phones and devices. Some of these patents include: “Method for Power Management of a Smart Phone,” “Telephone Dialer with Easy Access Memory” and “Power Control Methods for a Portable Electronic Device.”
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/htc-files-complaint-against-apple-over-patents/

Taipei company sues Apple over touch screen patents
http://gadgetophilia.com/taipei-company-sues-apple-over-touch-screen-patents/

The new Android 2.2 Aroyo does

You mean "hopefully will" support Flash, since it's not available yet, and despite all the previous claims of Android compatibility all we've seen so far is delays.

I just happen to be backing Android against the iPhone because of Steve Job's nasty war on Flash.

Based on Google's inability to get Flash working so far either, looks like those questions from Jobs have been justified.

Apple's lawsuit is against HTC for so-called similarities with the iPhone, not with Linux.

Actually it's both, for example one of the patents listed is #5,455,599, for "object oriented graphics system." You should really do more research before posting any further. At least I would.

Microsoft's cross licesninhg with HTC was in direct response to Apple’s lawsuit against HTC, to protect Microsoft's own Win Mo smart phones from HTC

To protect Microsoft? I hope I don't start laughing out loud at some of this. Microsoft's licensing agreement was so they get PAID, period, for the patent infringements by Linux on some HTC phones that ship with it. Just like all the other Linux companies that are PAYING Microsoft so they don't get sued either.

Based on Google’s inability to get Flash working so far either, looks like those questions from Jobs have been justified.

Yeah?
Funny, just saw Flash running very, very well on Android 2.2 just a couple of weeks ago right here. Watch and weep!:
New Flash for Android video runs great, possibly shows Android 2.2 homescreen
http://www.androidcentral.com/android-flash-froyo-games-video-nexus-one

“Actually it's both, for example one of the patents listed is #5,455,599, for “object oriented graphics system.” You should really do more research before posting any further. At least I would”

Umm.. Apple has yet to file a lawsuit against any vendors of Linux. Apple's lawsuit IS against HTC and it has to do with HTC smartphone specific issues.
Why? because Androids from HTC are grabbing market share from Apple, and Apple wants to stop ‘em any way they can.

” To protect Microsoft? I hope I don't start laughing out loud at some of this. Microsoft's licensing agreement was so they get PAID, period, for the patent infringements by Linux on some HTC phones that ship with it”

Will you excuse me whole I laugh?
Microsoft's agreement with HTC was a CROSS LICENSING agreement. Get it?
That means Microsoft gets access to HTC licenses while HTC gets access to Microsoft's licenses. As it happens, HTC has plenty of smartphone patents, having been in the smartphone business long before Apple got in.

HTC Files Complaint Against Apple Over Patents

The complaint says that Apple has violated five of HTC’s patents related to mobile phones and devices. Some of these patents include: “Method for Power Management of a Smart Phone,” “Telephone Dialer with Easy Access Memory” and “Power Control Methods for a Portable Electronic Device.”
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/htc-files-complaint-against-apple-over-patents/

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